[00:05:27] Josh Sharkey:
No, I don't.
[00:05:28] Darleen Scherer: It was like where you would buy CDs online. It seems, you know, at the time it was really cool. It's like, Oh my God, they have like everything you could possibly want, you know, on this website.
[00:05:38] Josh Sharkey:
Wait, so by the way, I missed his name. I think I might've asked you a question while you said his name, but who's the guy that you mentioned?
[00:05:44] Darleen Scherer:
His name is Scott. And his last name is Heiferman.
[00:05:47] Josh Sharkey:
Gotcha. So he started Meetup and then he's got all these businesses and then you started working for him.
[00:05:52] Darleen Scherer:
Yeah. I don't know. That's kind of where I was like, okay, cool. Like, I kind of like this whole marketing thing because it was like fun. It was like a game of like, how do we find, how do we drive traffic?
[00:06:01]
So the name of the place was iTraffic. It was like driving traffic to the site and get people to do something. In the end, it just became everything was about buying a, like buying a ticket to the park for Disney or with CD NOW, obviously buying CDs and, and serving and like capturing people in a certain mindset, whatever.
[00:06:21]
So I liked all of that. And then I worked at a graphic design studio called the Chopping Block where I was the general manager. I was working with these really talented graphic designers. Who they're all like, uh, Cooper Union grads and I was friends with them and I kind of was like, well, listen, you guys are not really charging enough for what you're doing and they liked that.
[00:06:43]
And it was true. And so they hired me and then I just, yeah, just completely changed their business, but everything was like perfect timing. You know, it was like, this is probably like 97, 96, 97, you know, and they're all these like. Internet startups that needed everything from like a name to an identity to the website.
[00:07:04]
And that was pretty much it, but like that was a lot. And, um, and they were doing a lot of these sites in Flash, which was pretty progressive at the time. Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I really love those guys and everything. And then September 11th happened and they pretty much, they kind of just went back to the four owners and, and kind of mustered the, through for a few years and then it kind of all parted ways, but you know, it was kind of like boom bust, you know, I don't know what, I don't know what, where you were, where were you at September 11th?
[00:07:34] Josh Sharkey:
I was cooking in New York, in Midtown, there was a working restaurant called Oceana on 54th and Madison.
[00:07:41] Darleen Scherer:
Yeah, okay.
[00:07:42] Josh Sharkey:
I was living in Middle Village, Queens when it happened, I like took pictures of the second tower. Oh shit, yeah. I vividly remember that time.
[00:07:49] Darleen Scherer:
Crazy. Yeah, so I was living in the East Village on 6th Street, there was a They Might Be Giants launch party.
[00:07:56]
that we had the night before. So we were all like out late. We're all like hung over. And I'm like, what is going on? I was talking to my mom on the phone. I was watching the today show. Like who even does that anymore? I won't be watching the today show. I was getting ready. And I'm like, Katie Couric's talking about the, the towers getting hit by a plane.
[00:08:13]
So bizarre. And so I pivoted. I was just like, okay, I I'm kind of, I was at that time. I was like, I want to do my own thing. Like I, you know, working in that kind of entrepreneurial environment, like with Scott. And then with these guys at the chopping block, you know, they kind of fueled that entrepreneurial spirit for sure.
[00:08:32]
And I was like, I can do this. I want to do this, but I want to do food. You know, I had been a waitress in college and I don't know, and in high school, I worked at Friendly's, but I always loved restaurants. You know what I mean? I always loved food service.
[00:08:48] Josh Sharkey:
You know, like now that you're saying all this, I have all these other questions cause I didn't know this much about your background in like branding and marketing and design.
[00:08:56]
And it makes so much sense when you look at the brands that you created.
[00:09:00] Darleen Scherer:
Yeah, thanks.
[00:09:01] Josh Sharkey:
There's such strong brands, like it's so obvious when you walk, you know, when you feel like, you know, a cup of coffee and you look at the super crown, it's like such a, like, you know, like a strong design too.
[00:09:12] Darleen Scherer:
Yeah. Thanks.You too. You know what I mean? Like I loved Bark’s brand. You know, and I love meez too.
[00:09:19] Josh Sharkey:
I don't know. I like four letter words.
[00:09:21] Darleen Scherer:
Oh, that's awesome.
[00:09:22] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. I had a sandwich shop in between called Make as well. That really loved, but, uh, just a big fan of four letter words. Well, anyway, so how did you get into coffee though? Cause yeah, you know,
[00:09:32]
I have like a million questions about coffee today that maybe I'll just, yeah. Save some because there may be obvious ones, but
how did you, how did you then get into coffee?
[00:09:41] Darleen Scherer:
Mm hmm. Well, so I'm like drinking my iced coffee right now. This is how it got started. Every morning on my way to work if I was going to one of those agencies or if I was going Yeah, or like the design studio, I would grab a coffee on my way there, you know, just around the corner. Oh, this is funny.
[00:09:59] Josh Sharkey:
From where?
[00:10:01] Darleen Scherer:
From this place called, God, it was called Atlas and then it changed and it was called like Blue Goose. But this is funny. So you know Chow Gloria? And Baked?
[00:10:12] Josh Sharkey:
Oh yeah. Yeah.
[00:10:13] Darleen Scherer:
Okay. So Renato, who was one of the founders of Baked, he was the manager at this place. And we had really similar backgrounds.
[00:10:21]
He was like, he had been working at agencies and around September 11th he was like, I want to do, I want to open a bakery. Yeah. A coffee shop or a bakery, you know, and I was like, Oh, that's really cool. Cause I am working on a business plan right now for the coffee company. So anyways, I always stay in touch with her.
[00:10:42]
I'm actually going to be in New York at our next week. And so, uh, I'm going to definitely go by Child Glory. I hope I'm going to catch up, but anyways, his thing is blowing up right now. He's got a book out and I'm really happy for him because he, yeah, I think he opened this one like right before COVID.
[00:10:59]
You know, I was just like, God, that guy, like what terrible luck, you know, and now I'm like, Oh my God, he's got like 33,000 followers on Instagram and he's got a book out. So anyways, yeah, I'm so excited.
[00:11:10] Josh Sharkey:
I don't know why I don't know more about this, like looking at it right now.
I'm like Googling it.
[00:11:13] Darleen Scherer:
Oh yeah, they're on Vanderbilt, right by Barclays.
[00:11:16] Josh Sharkey:
Oh, gotcha. I must have moved out of there after her. Yeah, no, I definitely moved out.
[00:11:21] Darleen Scherer:
I really, honestly, I think he opened up like late 2019. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:11:24] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. I mean, there wasn't much coffee, but it was basically there was Gorilla Coffee and then eventually Hungry Ghost opened. Oh, yeah. And
[00:11:32] Darleen Scherer: Cafe Grumpy was like in
[00:11:34] Josh Sharkey:
Oh yeah. It was a little bit down the Right. Williamsburg or whatever. When you opened, there was there was not a lot of coffee anywhere.
[00:11:41] Darleen Scherer:
Yeah. So I started this 2001, so I just was like, well, I really want to do food. I actually thought I wanted to do hot dogs and fries. You know, I kind of was like, well, I'm going to be there a lot and I don't know if I want to like go home smelling like hot dogs.
[00:11:58]
I don't mind going home smelling like coffee. I had like, what a weird decision, you know, whatever. But yeah, I'm glad to have gone down the coffee path.
[00:12:05] Josh Sharkey:
Both very pungent smells.
[00:12:07] Darleen Scherer:
I know my God, seriously, I know my brother growing up, he worked at a fish market and we would always be like, take all your things off at the door.
[00:12:14]
You know what I mean? You've got to get in the shower. You can't, you know, like you stink.
[00:12:18] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah.
[00:12:19] Darleen Scherer:
So anyways. Yeah. So I just was, I really loved coffee. You know, I was like, this is something that I get every day. I was getting it twice a day. So I'd get one on my way to work and then, you know, I would walk to Chelsea.
[00:12:30]
That's where the design studio was. And then in the afternoon, I'd go to the local place and get. Whatever, like another coffee was like, this is cool. Like, I, I love this. I love like people who work there seem to really like it, you know, I love how simple it is. It's like this one thing and then some pastries or whatever, but I also saw really an opportunity because at the time it was like Starbucks everywhere, which everyone hated.
[00:12:56]
New Yorkers hate it. At least the New Yorkers I was around, you know, cause they were taking every corner buying up every other coffee shop. But then all of a sudden they're everywhere. And then there are like these mom and pop type places that were just weren't paying attention to coffee at all.
[00:13:10] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah.
[00:13:11] Darleen Scherer:
I don't know if you remember this, but like getting scrambled eggs from a steam wand. You know what I mean? Like that was a thing, you know? And then they'd be like, then they'd make you a cappuccino. You're just like, that's gross. And so anyways, I saw an opportunity. I'm like, and also at the same time, the C market, the commodity for coffee, the commodity market for coffee, which is where the coffee prices are based in specialty coffee, we do C market plus whatever.
[00:13:37]
So like a dollar 12 plus or whatever, but it still determines the price for farmers and it was really low. It was. I don't know, in the 70s cents or something a pound. I also saw an opportunity there. I'm like, I'm going to commit to, you know, 2001, so much has changed, but to fair trade and organic. So it was a really big opportunity.
[00:13:57]
It was like, yeah, it was like small, small farm holders who were part of a cooperative. And so I liked that, you know, it wasn't just like a company or one person who owned and everyone else was doing the labor, like they were all in it together collectively. And it was guaranteeing a minimum price of, I think it was $1.25 or something.
[00:14:20]
So at the time I was like, well, at the time I was like, well, that seems like kind of a law, but like, I'll commit to this and then we'll just adjust our prices accordingly. So I went out to, I didn't know anything about coffee roasting, but I was really, I wanted to make that product from the beginning, you know, as close to the beginning as I could.
[00:14:37]
So I went out to Idaho to this company called Diedrich who makes coffee roasters, and they don't do the, I don't know if they do this anymore, other places, I'm sure they do this, but at the time they. They had a seminar where you could like take a class with the owner who would tell you about, it's usually like coffee sourcing, you know, like importers and how do you choose coffee and stuff like that.
[00:15:01]
And, and then how to roast, you know, like different methods for roasting, you know.
[00:15:06] Josh Sharkey:
Do you mind If I ask you a couple of questions about that?
[00:15:08] Darleen Scherer:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
[00:15:09] Josh Sharkey:
So are there different points in the process where you can actually Like, can you buy the bean, like, from, directly from the farmer, or is it like you're buying the green beans, and then some people buy the fully roasted beans, like, where do you usually buy, like, in one of your types of coffee shops, right, where you're really thinking about coffee, at what point are you buying the bean?
[00:15:30] Darleen Scherer:
Well, I was buying from an importer and that's how most roasters do. So there are importers that are based in the U.S. and being in New York was an advantage because there was a major importer in New York that I started with. So they were out. God, I think they were in Staten Island at the time. So I would go out to their lab, you know, and they had a huge storage facility where I would go, I would reserve, I ended up reserving coffees and be like, well, I'm using a lot of this Brazil.
[00:15:57]
And so I'd kind of do the math and be like, I'm going to need to reserve for the year about this much, you know? And that's how I would buy it. But I would go weekly and pick up coffee from them.
[00:16:08] Josh Sharkey:
Do you dictate how they roast or like, Oh no,
[00:16:11] Darleen Scherer:
I roasted it. I would buy it raw. So coffee comes. You know, it grows on a shrub.
[00:16:18]
And it's a cherry, you know, and people say coffee is a fruit, so it's like this little, it's not particularly sweet, it's kind of tart, it's typically red skinned, and inside, those beans, we call them beans, but they're really seeds, and they're like this, they're like back to back, so like that flat side, they kind of sit like this, and if it's a pea berry, it's just like this, and it's a little more rounded. like the seed of a fruit
[00:16:40]
Yeah, it's like kind of a big seed. It's mostly a seed and then around it is like a thin layer. Well, there's like a, there's like a silver skin that's around the bean and then holding. Each being together is like a parchment, like a thicker skin. Uh huh. And then around that is like a fruit and then around that is, uh, a skin.
[00:17:00] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah.
[00:17:02] Darleen Scherer:
So I don't know if you see, like, when people are talking about different processing methods, when they say, when, uh, processing, so like, the, So the cherries are picked, you know, ideally when they're ripe, typically by hand, some places they're picked mechanically, like Brazil does a lot of mechanical picking and then everything's sorted with laser sort, whatever, so that you get ripe.
[00:17:22] Josh Sharkey:
So you want the fruit to be ripe.
[00:17:24] Darleen Scherer:
Yeah, certain like, you know, like some of the best scoring coffees that are picked at their peak ripeness, you know, it's hard to, I mean, you know, this with ingredients, you know, it's hard to correct something that's kind of messed up to start. Right.
[00:17:37] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, yeah, well, some things ripen better like off like tomatoes sometimes ripen better like
[00:17:42] Darleen Scherer:
Oh, interesting. this goes through a whole processing method Yes, it's not really once it's picked.
[00:17:49]
It's it's going through. I mean, so I like washed coffees Mostly and so that's that me kind of It means like, so they take, so that same day they take, you know, like, say you're in Costa Rica and they're handpicking, handpicking, they're putting them in these coquillas, these like buckets or baskets. And then they, you know, at the end of the day, they're just like putting them down towards the bottom of the mountain or wherever that is where the trucks are and then the trucks are taking them to the mill to take that skin off, wash off that fruit.
[00:18:22]
And put them out on a drying bed or a drying patio, you know, and so, and then there's, you know, then they rotate them and they stay out however long and hopefully there's no rain. There's also some farms have dryers, which have, so there's all these different, like, you know, there's all these quality assurance steps along that way, right, where they've got someone measuring the moisture content.
[00:18:49] Josh Sharkey:
What do they do with the fruit? Like with all the residual fruit that gets washed off?
[00:18:52] Darleen Scherer:
It's a great question. Well, so there's a thing called cascara, which in Spanish means skin. And so that is, it sort of has like a plum taste to it. And so some people use that for tea because it's waste, you know, and they would have to, at the farms, they would just put it, uh, like larger firms, they can like put it back onto the farm, like, you know, just like falls into the soil.
[00:19:17]
It's like compost. Yeah. But it also is like high acidity. Right. So you always have to like balance all that kind of stuff. Ever since I've been in coffee and even maybe more so now, or, or still so now, people are always talking about like, how do you create more compost? Revenue streams or wealth for farmers, you know, cause they're, you know, in the whole chain, they're the ones that.
[00:19:40] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, I'm sure don't make out very well, especially if the price is almost like set for them, you know,
[00:19:45] Darleen Scherer:
Yeah I mean just like all that stuff that I described that's like paid maybe like 25 percent There's still so much more that happens there, you know, like they have lab technicians They've got Q graders who are cupping, you know, they have roasters on site At the very least, like, make a sample roaster so they can roast and grade the coffee and see if there are defects or.
[00:20:09] Josh Sharkey:
How much does weather impact the entirety of the crop? Like an aggregate, like there's like a rainy weather.
[00:20:14] Darleen Scherer:
A lot. Yeah. Yeah. A lot. Yeah. There's some kind of this new brand called Nguyen. Have you seen it? It's a RTD. So this woman, she's in, she's from Brooklyn. It's like N G U Y E N.
[00:20:32] Josh Sharkey:
Oh, I have seen it. Yeah, yeah. Somebody sent me like a gift box of it.
[00:20:35] Darleen Scherer:
Oh, cool. Okay. So she's American. She's like, I think first generation Vietnamese. Her family's Vietnamese. And so she's got this, she's buying from Vietnamese farms, coffee farms. I think they're mostly Robusta, which is, you know, we've been talking about Arabica.
[00:20:54]
Robusta is like what we used to think of with like Folgers and Maxwell House and that kind of stuff. It's like higher caffeine doesn't taste as nice.
[00:21:02] Josh Sharkey:
When you say it doesn't taste it nice. Is it like more acidic? Is it just mellower? Like, like, like not as flavorful? What, what's the difference in flavor profile?
[00:21:10] Darleen Scherer:
I mean honestly, like my perception of it, and I have cupped so little Robusto, it just never went across our tables. And even like El Salvador, like whole country. Bans the growing of Robusta because it's, it gets into their, they're, you know, they have like, they're really precious about their specialty coffee and you know, you get more money for it.
[00:21:34]
Anyways. Yeah. So anyways, it's a whole, it's a fair, it's a topic like we could have a whole podcast on Robusta, but anyways, all that is to say is Vietnam, although I don't know, I think they just got hit really badly with some tropical stuff, but I think they, the Robusta grows slower. And it's more resilient to climate change.
[00:21:54]
So that's a little bit of the pitch for, for it, you know, and then they, they make it, I haven't even tried her product. I'm really, I should do what I'm going to do.
[00:22:04] Josh Sharkey:
I made a pour over with it. It was pretty good.
[00:22:07] Darleen Scherer:
Okay. Cool. Yeah. I don't think she's doing all robust anymore, but yeah, so I'm not sure what you drank, but, uh, yeah.
[00:22:13]
So anyways, I made us a huge, even within one country, even like a neighboring farm, like their microclimates to like one farm will be like, Oh, I get a ton of rain every day at two and the other firm that's just like, You know, like within I say, it's like, Oh, wait, it's pretty drier over here. You know what I mean? So climate is a huge factor.
[00:22:36] Josh Sharkey:
It's so interesting. Like how much has to happen before it even like you do well at the coffee shop, you know, when you have a good
cup of coffee, it's crazy. So like, obviously they have to, you know, the agriculture has to be really good. They have to be good farmers. They have to, you know, all these critical points along the way before they even like harvested, then they're cleaning it, washing off the fruit and drying it.
[00:22:58]
And then after it's dried, is that then when it's shipped?
[00:23:02] Darleen Scherer:
No, then it's stored. So they typically will keep it in the pergamino or
parchment. That thicker skin in bags and burlap bags. Usually I think also plastic and burlap. I'm not sure. I think both, but in a climate controlled warehouse, ideally.
[00:23:19] Josh Sharkey:
To ferment or something. Why, why are they storing it? Why do they not just ship it right away to after it's dry?
[00:23:24] Darleen Scherer:
Oh, it's resting. It's part of the process. Yeah. So it's, I don't know, it's not fermenting. It shouldn't be if it was washed, but it's just like, I don't know, just kind of coming into itself, I guess.
[00:23:37] Josh Sharkey:
How long does that happen for?
[00:23:39] Darleen Scherer:
I don't know. A couple of weeks, maybe. I think that the cycle is somewhat short, but. It is a step that happens and it changes, you know, like a fresh crop tastes different from at the end of the year, you know, like, uh, you know, like before, I mean, honestly, like it's best if you can just always have fresh crop coffees.
[00:23:58]
So, but it's just like logistically it's difficult and it puts a lot of pressure on firms. I think
[00:24:04] Josh Sharkey:
It seems like there must be a lot of competition with all these. coffee shops or coffee companies to who gets the right, the best of the crops from the certain farmers.
[00:24:14] Darleen Scherer:
Oh, I don't think there's that much competition there.
[00:24:17] Josh Sharkey:
You know, enough supply where that's not an issue.
[00:24:20] Darleen Scherer:
I mean, I guess maybe a farm that has like high, really high scoring coffee, say like their cup of excellence winners or some international award that people really recognize or best in Panama or whatever. So they'll typically have some that are So like specialty coffee scores from 80 to 100, 80 being the lowest, and a lot of the coffees that we drink are in the 80s, maybe high 80s if you're going to a good place, and then when they really start getting unique and special when you're in the 90s, and you know, you pay more for those coffees.
[00:24:57]
You know, so something that scores, it's something that like won best of Panama and it was like a certain variety that everyone's excited about. I mean they can go for like a hundred dollars a pound, three hundred dollars a pound.
[00:25:10] Josh Sharkey:
Who drinks? Like where does that get? That's probably not even sold, right?
[00:25:13] Darleen Scherer:
It's just like a, you know. Well, that's funny you say that like some people people we would say that like roasters would just buy that for the prestige because they would get published of like this coffee roaster just bought the best of Panama, you know, whatever this crop it's tough, but I don't know, they just put it in small little packages and, you know, sell it and they'll do pour overs, you know, be like a 12 pour over or more. I don't know. Yeah.
[00:25:38] Josh Sharkey:
It would have to be more, right? Isn't it like almost an ounce? Or no, I guess it would be about a half ounce, like 24 grams in a cup of coffee, right, It’s about that?
[00:25:45] Darleen Scherer:
I guess so, it seems high. I've been doing a batch of like, it's 10 cup, so it's really, I don't know, but it's 70 grams I weighed out.
[00:25:54] Josh Sharkey:
Okay, so seven grams.
[00:25:56] Darleen Scherer:
Okay, I haven't done a pour over in years.
[00:25:59] Josh Sharkey:
You know what's funny? So I wanted to ask you about this.
[00:26:01] Darleen Scherer:
Yeah.
[00:26:02] Josh Sharkey:
I did pour over for like, you know, for many, many years up until like a year and a half, maybe like two years ago, because I was doing pour over of this counterculture being that like I was getting like subscription of up here in Westchester, because there's not a lot of coffee up here.
[00:26:20]
And then I, a friend of mine sent me the same coffee bean in this thing called Comatier.
[00:26:25] Darleen Scherer:
Oh, yeah,
[00:26:26] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, it's frozen. It's really fucking good.
[00:26:29] Darleen Scherer:
Cool, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:26:30] Josh Sharkey:
I was like, wait a sec, this doesn't make any sense. Like, why is this, it was like, as good if not better than the pour over.
[00:26:35] Darleen Scherer:
Oh that's amazing. And you know,
[00:26:36] Josh Sharkey:
I made sure, like, the pour, like, the time and the, I think you taught me how to do a pour over.
[00:26:40]
You also taught me how to make cold brew, but like, you know, it was like, I made sure I did it the right way. And I was like, why? Because I don't know what the process is of this cold material, I think they like, bulk, you know, cook it all, like very, cook, and, they wouldn't reduce it, maybe they just like cook it at a very high concentration, and then freeze it right away or something, but it's really good.
[00:26:56] Darleen Scherer:
I don't know, I wonder, I am,
[00:26:59] Josh Sharkey:
I'm drinking it right now.
[00:27:01] Darleen Scherer:
You are? That's so cool.
[00:27:02] Josh Sharkey:
Now they have, like, all these, so I get, like, Four different flavors a week.
[00:27:06] Darleen Scherer:
That's cool.
[00:27:07] Josh Sharkey:
And they have everything intelligent. You know, they have all these brands like Red Bay and George Howell and like, I never know what half of them are.
[00:27:14] Darleen Scherer:
George Howell, you said?
[00:27:15] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's a bunch.
[00:27:17] Darleen Scherer:
Well, that makes a huge difference of who
you're drinking. So who are you drinking right now?
[00:27:23] Josh Sharkey:
This one right here, I'll tell you is, no, this isn't the Onyx, but I had, there's a, I'll try and pull it out real quick. Cause I just.
[00:27:29] Darleen Scherer:
Yeah.
[00:27:30] Josh Sharkey:
Because it's really good, like, let's see here, so they give you like a mix of different roasts as well.
[00:27:37] Darleen Scherer:
Uh huh.
[00:27:38] Josh Sharkey:
And now I have to like find the coffee's curated box. Here we go. I'm also curious how they do like the, how does the coffee become versus medium versus dark? Or it's like what makes a strong cup of coffee? Like how do they, is that just the actual bean itself?
[00:27:53] Darleen Scherer:
No, it's the way you roast it.
[00:27:55] Josh Sharkey:
Oh, really?
[00:27:56] Darleen Scherer:
Yeah. Here, you'll, you'll appreciate this. This is my analogy. Like, say you got, someone gave you, have you ever baked bread?
[00:28:03] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. Yeah.
[00:28:04] Darleen Scherer:
So if someone gave you like this really beautiful grain, you know, and you were going to make a loaf of bread with it. You would do it to a certain way, I would imagine, where you're like bringing out, so you could like actually taste that sweetness of that grain.
[00:28:21]
Right? And you're like, oh my god, like whatever would be a good one, amaranth or I don't even know. So, that's how I feel about coffee roasting. If you're paying like a lot of money, let's just say, I think it's like you start on the like you pay a lot of money, so when you get a really good, I think it's like you start on the like you pay a lot of money, so when you get a really good, quality green coffee, what do you do with it?
[00:28:39]
You roast it light, you know what I mean? Or you just would never dark roast that.
[00:28:46] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah.
[00:28:48] Darleen Scherer:
You know, because you would lose all of that. delicateness and sweetness and like all that. So I think my approach with coffee roasting has has always been and especially with Super Crown was like just bringing out what's there.
[00:29:04] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. It depends on the on the bean how you how you roast it. Gotcha.
[00:29:09] Darleen Scherer:
So Whenever I see dark roast, it's like, okay, that's fine. But that's like, that's like an mid eighties scoring coffee, low eighties scoring coffee. It's just like, just put milk and sugar in it. It's just like a different drink, you know?
[00:29:22] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. So I'll read some of the brands that, so when they send it, it's always like, they'll just pick four and send it to you. So they have,
[00:29:28] Darleen Scherer:
Okay. You can't choose. You can't be like, I always want this roaster. Now
[00:29:31] Josh Sharkey:
They finally create, I'm in the beta for like choosing the ones you want more. So I choose the ones I didn't want.
[00:29:36] Darleen Scherer:
Okay.
[00:29:37] Josh Sharkey:
I mean, no offense, Joe Coffey, I'm not a big fan. But, uh, Houseplant, Intelligentsia, Birch, Bird Rock, Square Mile, whatever that is, Black and White. And then they have Clatch, and something called Gget, G G E T. Go get them, Tiger. Yeah, George Howell, Red Bay, uh, Equator, uh, So these are all the ones they have actually really like the houseplant.
[00:30:01]
I think like Seth Rogen investment or something Houseplant. Yeah, it's really, it's really good. Okay. He's like the face of it, but it's called houseplant. It's really good. Anyway, most of them are really good. They also counterculture, but they just send you four different boxes every week and they're all Mostly really good.
[00:30:18] Darleen Scherer:
And how do they come? Are they like with freeze packs or?
[00:30:21] Josh Sharkey:
The packaging is certainly not as eco friendly as you'd like. Yeah. It's a big box with a bunch of freezer packs and then there's four, eight packs of these pods. They send that every week. So we get it every week.
[00:30:33] Darleen Scherer:
And then you just pour hot water over it and that's your cup of coffee?
[00:30:36] Josh Sharkey:
I actually had a hot water tap installed in my kitchen. Oh nice. So just for this purpose. So I literally just, you know, pour, you know, it's at like 199 degrees or something and like. Nice. The pod like melts really quickly, so I just drop the pot in some hot water and then like pour it into a cup of hot water and that's it. It's basically just like concentrated frozen coffee, but it's really good.
[00:30:59] Darleen Scherer:
I think they're brewing it, they must be brewing it like this Japanese method. I have to like look on their website. It's not cold brew. Because you wouldn't get all that, like with cold brew and sort of tastes like that method of cold brewing, you know, but.
[00:31:14] Josh Sharkey:
Unless they, you know, you showed me this other, at Bark, we used the Gorilla Coffee cold brew and we made a concentrate of it. You gave us a recipe, which I think was like eight gallons of water to five pounds of coffee. And I think that might have been it. I don't remember to be honest with you, but we did like basically like.
[00:31:31]
One eighth of the amount of water, and then we just used that concentrate in the, in the milkshake.
[00:31:37] Darleen Scherer:
Oh, that's right. Oh, yeah, that was so good.
[00:31:39] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, it was really fun. Yeah. But then you, you showed us this other method, which was like a hot, it was basically a pour over with ice in the,
[00:31:46] Darleen Scherer:
Yeah, that's my favorite method, and I'm pretty sure that's what the Comitera is doing. It's called Japanese method, but you are, you're adjusting your, Your grind settings, and typically you grind a little bit finer than you would for drip. You adjust your dosing, you typically do a slightly more of a dose than you would for like a hot batch. But all these, like, these are all the things you just like dial in so that you're like, that's it, that's like what I want.
[00:32:13]
And I've done it at home recently, but I've done this, I've done it at, that's how we brew it at Gorilla and same thing with Super Crown. But yeah, you brew it hot over ice.
[00:32:23] =
So it kind of, when you make those adjustments for this type of method, yeah, you get like, you get all that nuance in the coffee, you know, and then it's like stronger.
[00:32:33]
So then you add ice and it like holds up, you know, but it really cold brew tastes to me. I think other people, some people may agree with me. It tastes like the method of cold brew, like you taste cold brew and you're like, you know, that that was a cold brew method.
[00:32:48] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah.
[00:32:48] Darleen Scherer:
First. And I just want to be like, I want to be like, what does this coffee taste like? Not what was that method? Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
[00:32:57] Josh Sharkey:
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[00:33:14]
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[00:33:33] Josh Sharkey:
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[00:34:05] Josh Sharkey:
And some people make like iced coffee, which I guess they just like making coffee and cooling it down. Is that?
[00:34:09] Darleen Scherer:
Oh, I don't know.
[00:34:10] Josh Sharkey:
I'm asking, you know, you don't need to see the iced coffee on a menu. Like, is that what that means?
[00:34:15] Darleen Scherer:
Well, I called this iced coffee for years, but it was this method. Yeah. There's a lot of dumb ways to do it that, you know, you can just like, I mean, it's sort of like what you, you know, people do at home.
[00:34:25]
Whenever I visit my friends, they're just like, Oh, well, that pot of coffee is, we're not using it anymore. So they just put. It in the fridge and I'm like, well, that's been sitting out for like an hour and a half, but yeah, that's cool. It's just like caffeine delivery system.
[00:34:39]
So, you know, we kind of get a sense of like this, you know, when you have a really good cup of coffee, all the elements, I mean, we could probably talk about that for hours, like what happens on the farm and then, you know, while they're resting in and as they're shipping it, there's probably a lot of other things and But like, let's just say you just go to a bodega around the corner and you get a cup of coffee, you know What's that What's happening? What is it? Yeah, what's up with that cup of coffee? Like, how is that different?
[00:35:03] Darleen Scherer:
What's up with that? I mean, they would just, if, yeah, if like those bodegas are buying from, you know, like, let's talk about New York. So they're buying from typically I would imagine like one of the like old school roasters where they can get them.
[00:35:17]
But basically it's a surprise game. Can you give me equipment? You know, I'm going to be going through a lot. So like, Oh yeah, great. We'll get, we'll give you your brewer and we'll, we'll make sure to maintain it or whatever or not, who knows. And then they'll just give them, they'll buy, they would call it specialty.
[00:35:34]
So they were probably just buying like low eighties scoring coffee, roasted medium to dark, you know? And so, and that's the consistency. So it's like at the best it's chocolatey.
[00:35:46] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. So they're buying already roasted beans and they're just roasted and ground and they're just kind of.
[00:35:52] Darleen Scherer:
Yeah. Everyone buy Yeah. If you're brewing coffee or only, but the only roasters turn the coffee from buy the green coffee and then roast it.
[00:36:01] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. So what does Starbucks do then? Like what's their. They're roasters. But they don't roast in each store. So they have like centralized. Oh no,
[00:36:08] Darleen Scherer:
no, no. They've got a huge facility in Seattle.
[00:36:10] Josh Sharkey:
And that's, they just sort of distribute from there.
[00:36:13] Darleen Scherer:
Mm hmm.
[00:36:13] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. Yeah. So they're, but they're, they're like roasting it. And grinding it and sending it, right?
[00:36:18] Darleen Scherer:
I don't think so. I think they're,
[00:36:21] Josh Sharkey:
yeah, you've got to have a grinder.
[00:36:22] Darleen Scherer:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's, I don't even know, man, honestly, maybe they, they might have them in what's called frack packs, like fractional packs.
[00:36:30]
I worked at Starbucks. At Astor place when I was writing my business plan for gorilla, I was like, I want to like learn as much as I can. Cause I was like, how do you even, I honestly, I was just like, how do you operate a coffee bar? You know what I mean? And I was like, is there a manager, like manager, like key holder?
[00:36:47]
Like how do you handle cash? You know what I mean? Like, I didn't know how that worked. And so I worked at the Astor place. So when I was there, it came in five pound bags and you would weigh it out and grind it. But I'm sure now just for. consistency and ease and less straining. You just have it in a, like they've, they grind it and put it in vacuum sealed.
[00:37:12] Josh Sharkey:
What do you think the typical scoring of a bean from Starbucks is?
[00:37:18] Darleen Scherer:
80s, low 80s. Low 80s too? Well, it depends. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's the thing, right? They're roasting everything so dark. It's like, okay, it's like, I can't, how do you even like Determine like they've got notes on the bags of like, Oh, citrus. I'm like, really? Yeah.
[00:37:34] Josh Sharkey:
I can't drink Starbucks unless I won't. But if I can, if I'm stuck at an airport somewhere where that's all they have, it has to be like the light roast. Otherwise I just can't drink it.
[00:37:43] Darleen Scherer:
You know, that's really funny on road trips. If I'm, if I'm lucky, I'll be like, Oh yeah, there's a Dunkin donuts.
[00:37:50]
Yeah. But it's just like, they are so intense with the milk and the sugar though. You're like, I just want. One point, you know, you have to like really specify it, Dunkin Donuts, otherwise just like walk away this sugary thing. Yeah,
[00:38:02] Josh Sharkey:
I can't drink milk, so like I, I have drink black coffee.
[00:38:05] Darleen Scherer:
Oh, yeah.
[00:38:06] Josh Sharkey:
Everyone's got like cream in there, but like.
[00:38:07] Darleen Scherer:
Right.
[00:38:09] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, milk doesn't do so well for me.
[00:38:10] Darleen Scherer:
Uh, is that a new development?
[00:38:13] Josh Sharkey:
Uh, like, you know what's funny? When I hit, I'm 43 now. When I hit 30, I like developed this allergy to live yeast. Oh. So I couldn't drink beer or wine or sake anymore. So I haven't had a beer in like 13 years.
[00:38:26]
And then I did this like, Diet for like six months, and I shouldn't have done it for six months, and I shouldn't have done it all, but that's just kind of how I do things, and it was no sugar, no alcohol, no caffeine, no gluten, and no dairy. I felt amazing afterwards, and then I couldn't eat a lot of that stuff ever again, like, all of a sudden I had a gluten sensitive, I mean, I eat gluten, but not as much, and like, I had dairy sensitivity, and
[00:38:52] Darleen Scherer:
That's what I don't know about the caffeine part, but those are all the things that are people have problems with though.
[00:38:57] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah.
[00:38:58] Darleen Scherer:
You know, dairy, sugar, and sugar is a tough one. Sugar is real tough.
[00:39:01] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. Cause I, I love desserts.
[00:39:04] Darleen Scherer:
Me too. Me too. I know. I love making, my new thing is like, uh, baking layer cakes. Oh, cause I'm in Denver now. And it's like a mile high, you know, so it's like a whole thing where that's like, I feel like I always like a little barrier to entry kind of gives the challenge a little more interest to me.
[00:39:21]
And so I'm like, Oh, how do I adjust my recipe for altitude so that my cakes don't sink? You know?
[00:39:28] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. What are the typical adjustments you make?
[00:39:30] Darleen Scherer:
Every single ingredient, it's like you adjust the dry, you adjust the wet, you adjust the temperature and the time.
[00:39:39] Josh Sharkey:
Wow.
[00:39:39] Darleen Scherer:
Yeah, but I'll tell you what, like Claudia, like AI is great for this kind of thing, right? Take like. Because before I would sit down and I would do all the, and I'm like, not a math person. So I'm like making all the adjustments and, you know, and my last one, I just did this strawberry lemonade cake from the New York times. It was amazing. Came out perfect the first time. So I'm psyched about that, but I took the recipe from the New York times and then I took the adjustments from King Arthur.
[00:40:09]
And I put them into Claude and I was like, make these adjustments for 5, 280 elevation. I know. And it came out and I was like, and I've read through it and I'm like, that's amazing.
[00:40:21] Josh Sharkey:
So I'm writing this down right now. It's such a really cool feature.
[00:40:26] Darleen Scherer:
Claude is great for math.
[00:40:30] Josh Sharkey:
Thank you. Adjust for elevation. I love that. So you worked at Starbucks to kind of like learn the coffee operation. And now you've, you do a lot of consulting for a lot of these types of brands. But like, I'm so curious. I've never run a coffee shop, but I obviously you go in, you see, you know, these people are making coffee after coffee after coffee.
[00:40:49]
It's a lot of like manufacturing process, but like online, I'm really just curious, like, what's, like, the typical, one, what's, like, the typical margin or EBITDA of a coffee shop when it's, like, decent? And what are, like, the most volatile or, like, variable aspects of the operation that you've seen people get, like, right or wrong?
[00:41:09] Darleen Scherer:
Yeah, that's a great question. Geez. Well, obviously, you make more margin if you are roasting the coffee. You know, like say you're buying the coffee at 3. 50 a pound and then you roast it, you lose 20 percent whatever there's packaging involved in labor, but versus 11, 12 and up a pound.
[00:41:30] Josh Sharkey:
Oh wow, that's a big difference. If you're buying it roasted.
[00:41:34] Darleen Scherer:
You know, and then you can sell bags of coffee, you could also do this as like a lot of, there's a lot, so many coffee brands right now is why I'm like, find this interesting. This is the challenge for me is like, there's so many coffee companies out there. So it's like. How do you stand out?
[00:41:53]
So anyways, there's companies that do private label. So like a larger roaster, even smaller roasters are just doing private label for like people who are like, Hey, I really want to have a coffee company. I got someone who's like, Oh, some of my friends have this thing that they need coffee for. And, you know, or they're like an influencer.
[00:42:09]
And so, you know what I mean? There's this like, yeah, that's the world, right. Where you could just like turn on a brand within a week and then you have a product, you know? So, but, If like the traditional model is like roaster and then you do the retail or you sell to someone who's doing the retail or you're like, you don't do retail at all, like counterculture, which, you know, that was a really interesting move on their part.
[00:42:33]
It's just like, they're just doing wholesale and they just. Do that wholesale game really well, you know, so they're that they just really focus on sourcing and roasting and packaging and then they market. Yeah. To, you know, within the specialty coffee.
[00:42:45] Josh Sharkey:
They're the only brand that I remember in the restaurants. I remember counterculture coming and training us on how to make the coffee.
[00:42:52] Darleen Scherer:
Yeah, that's great. Well, yeah, Intelligentsia would do all the, all the companies, but they do that now.
[00:42:57] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. I mean, this was, I mean, it was like, you know, maybe 15, 20 years ago.
[00:43:00] Darleen Scherer:
Yeah, yeah, that was, and they were big in New York, you know, they're based out of North Carolina. So they're kind of like East Coast brand. But yeah, and they had really good reps in New York and that's where they really spend their money. And they're, they're a great company. Like they do transparency reports on how much they're paying for their, for their coffee. And, you know, they, at the end of the year, they always do like, uh, some roasters do that where they're just like, this is how much we paid.
[00:43:26] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. Are there's like standardized, like this should be the food cost percent of a cappuccino.
[00:43:32] Darleen Scherer:
Oh, I mean, yeah, the markup is great. I actually put together a calculator for, I'm working with a coffee roaster in Reno for him to give to his wholesale accounts.
[00:43:49] Josh Sharkey:
You know, you pull it up, we have a lot of coffee shops as customers and there's, you know, all these, you know, just putting not just the food recipes in there, but like all of the coffee recipes in there and we haven't done much with it, but I bet there's a lot of similarities, if not exact same of like the recipes for each.
[00:44:05] Darleen Scherer:
So like, here's an example.
[00:44:08] Josh Sharkey:
Okay. So there's the green cost. So that's just basically buying the green bean and the spreadsheet and then.
[00:44:13] Darleen Scherer:
Yeah. And so these are all like, these are hard coded in there. I'm just, let's say paying 3. 58 for the green coffee. And then if you lose 20%, In roasting, which is typical, I just multiply it by 1.25
[00:44:25]
and that's what it is roasted. This is the cost of your bag. Here's your cons, your markup.
[00:44:32] Josh Sharkey:
Expensive bag. Oh my God.
[00:44:34] Darleen Scherer:
Oh, I know. Tell me about it. Well, that's like, yeah, that's, you know, this, it's like if you're a smaller roaster, you know, and you're just for five pound bags, you just, that, yeah, prices for bags have gone up a lot since COVID.
[00:44:47] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. So 40 cents for a sticker.
[00:44:50] Darleen Scherer:
But you make a lot, you know what I mean, like the wholesale price is this and this is what your costs are. Oh, so that's the wholesale price.
[00:44:56] Josh Sharkey:
Because what's like the typical cost of a cappuccino right now or like a latte? Is it like four or five bucks on that?
[00:45:02] Darleen Scherer:
So this is for the wholesale partners. Okay, so their pay, yeah, so the cost of the coffee cost is, so for eight ounce drip, and I've just gone through all this, like a latte.
[00:45:15] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, so this is for buying, buying roasted beans. Okay, so
[00:45:17] Darleen Scherer:
Yes, yeah. For, for their partners. So, okay. The cost of your coffee. So in this case, the eight ounce latte, it's 38 cents, you know, based on 12 a pound.
[00:45:27]
Uh, this is what your milk costs are. Then your milk per drink, your cost, lid cost, sleeve cost, syrup. Total cost is 67 cents. The markup is 3.5. And then the menu price. And I feel like these prices are on the low end, but that's good because then, okay, but then you can, you know, mark it up by, you know, mark it up by five. There you go.
[00:45:50] Josh Sharkey:
That looks like you're at like a 28 percent food cost in general for those things. And then you have to factor in the, I'm just doing a couple of these right here, divided by 764. So, yeah, they're all basically a 28 and a half percent food cost. But then you, you have to have somebody to make that, so.
[00:46:07] Darleen Scherer:
Oh, yeah.
[00:46:08] Josh Sharkey:
I would think you would consider the cost of the person making it as part of the cost of the cup of coffee, right?
[00:46:14] Darleen Scherer:
Oh, do you? Yeah, I mean, geez. I'm just thinking, I'm just. Yeah, I mean. Well, and then that's a really good point. And so that ties into like, what kind of equipment are you using? You know, there's, you know what I mean?
[00:46:27] Josh Sharkey:
Are there coffee shops that use equipment to just make the whole thing?
[00:46:30] Darleen Scherer:
There's a company that's pretty good. They're called Eversys. They do super automatic espresso machines. Yeah. And they. I mean, you have to maintain them and stay on top of them, right? But, yeah, they'll make a really, they'll consistent espresso.
[00:46:45] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah.
[00:46:46] Darleen Scherer:
You know? They, they dial it in and all this stuff. You set all the parameters. They'll constantly adjust and whatever. So you get, I had one of these at Superground.
[00:46:54] Josh Sharkey:
On average, like, how many minutes do you think it takes to make a cappuccino? Two minutes?
[00:46:58] Darleen Scherer:
Less. Oh my God, less. Oh, if that's what you're making from start to finish, assuming, you know, like, assuming like you've got a busy bar and you're like grinders already.
[00:47:07]
So in a manual way. Yeah. Like your grinders already like dialed in. So you're just like, can it like. Gorilla or Superground like they could make them really quickly as long as like it's all set up right and then throughout the day you're adjusting your uh grinder but for the most part it's someone whose skill can just kind of you know and then it's almost like i always felt like the busier we were the faster those drinks would come out yeah you know what i mean they were just kind of in a flow of like pulling for three different drinks at a time.
[00:47:35] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah yeah but at least a minute right at least You would think at least a minute per, because even if you're paying a, you know, someone, a barista, like, what, 15, 20 bucks an hour, I would guess, and then you got payroll taxes, so if it's 20, you're talking about 22 bucks an hour. And if it's one minute, that's, that's already like 36 cents for that cup of coffee on top of the 28 percent food cost.
[00:48:02] Darleen Scherer:
So that's a really, that's a high,
[00:48:04] Josh Sharkey:
That's a high cost for that cup of coffee.
[00:48:06] Darleen Scherer:
Well, honestly, and
[00:48:08] Josh Sharkey:
I mean high, like a very low margin, you know, cause
[00:48:11] Darleen Scherer:
I’m really interested to see what the prices are in Denver. I feel like the prices are. I don't know, probably pretty low, you know, there's some really good coffee companies here.
[00:48:22] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah.
[00:48:23] Darleen Scherer:
I don't know, like, I don't know what's low, like 6 for a latte. But I think a friend of mine was in San Francisco, a coffee person, and they were just like, they, I think they said that like a 10 ounce, 12 ounce latte was something like, I don't know, 10 bucks or something.
[00:48:38]
Because they have, I feel like the minimum wage is just really high there.
[00:48:44] Josh Sharkey:
It's a linear, you know, like every cup of coffee requires a person to make it, unless you have a machine. And so, you know, I mean, I guess they are also. No, they're not typically the person that's taking your order. It's usually somebody behind
[00:48:55] Darleen Scherer:
someone else. Yeah,
[00:48:57] Josh Sharkey:
That's expensive.
[00:48:58] Darleen Scherer:
Yeah. I mean, I think this is happening everywhere, right? I mean, yeah, this is like where we need to talk about where it's the proper balance of like automation with people, you know, for consistency and I don't know, it's just like, yeah, COVID's really turned everything upside down. I think.
[00:49:15] Josh Sharkey:
Where do coffee shops like make their, are they making their margin on the drip? Or like on baked goods because there's no labor? Like,
[00:49:21] Darleen Scherer:
Oh man, I mean, the model, it's like a volume really, it's like, well, you just have to, it's a, it's a volume business. And so, you know, and you go into a coffee shop and there's no one in line and everyone's like on their laptops.
[00:49:35]
You're like, that's not a good, that's not a healthy business. And then, you know, and then, you know, This is a little bit, unfortunately, maybe like just times of change. And so like, a lot of people are getting into food. They're not really, you know, I did that at Superground. I'm like, it was kind of like the Australian cafe.
[00:49:52]
It was like exploding. And I'm like, I have to do egg sandwiches and toasts and stuff. And so I have to have a cook on staff and. Well, you know, while there's downtime, I'm going to have them do juices. You know what I mean? Like, so it's just like, uh, the model is different. And so if you're in a busy spot, I, you know, and then it's just like your thing about like your footprint, you know, like you don't want a huge space, you know, unless you're, you have a different, I don't know, there's companies that you, you know, this, like, yeah, like they're playing a different game, they're just trying to build market share at whatever cost to sell, you know?
[00:50:30]
And so. You know, they have this, they're this theatrical experience and whatever. They're not that busy, but they've got a beautiful, beautiful space. I feel like this happens in, in, in LA and certain parts of California. You see it, maybe New York. I'm excited to go back and see like where, you know, it's been, I think four years, I was back maybe four years ago.
[00:50:49]
So it'll be really interesting to see like really post COVID, like what's going on here. The founder of. Chipotle is he's opening, or he opened a vegan concept. I think near the Flatiron.
[00:51:01] Josh Sharkey:
He's a concept called Kernel. I had to bring it there. It was, it was really good.
[00:51:05] Darleen Scherer:
Interesting. Yeah. And so that's mostly robots.
[00:51:08] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. There's a coffee company called blank street that. I know, uh,
[00:51:13] Darleen Scherer:
I know the operations person there, you know, Wendy.
[00:51:16] Josh Sharkey:
I know the, the CEO is in this like little group that I'm in, but I'm meaning to catch up. I sent him a note a couple of times, but. It seems like they're doing really well and it seems like they're trying to, you know, keep it like super simple and they're scaling.
[00:51:29]
So that's like sort of, I guess, that low footprint and volume model. But, you know, one of the problems with coffee shops, I imagine, is the day part problem, right?
[00:51:38] Darleen Scherer:
Is the what?
[00:51:39] Josh Sharkey:
Day parts, like you can't, there's not a lot of business at night.
[00:51:42] Darleen Scherer:
Oh my god, yeah.
[00:51:43] Josh Sharkey:
You gotta make all your money, you know, you know, early morning.
That's why I always think it's crazy when I see coffee shops that, you know, Don't open till like 8:30 or something like, what are you doing? Oh
[00:51:51] Darleen Scherer:
my God. Yeah, I know.
[00:51:53] Josh Sharkey:
I was at a place in San Francisco. I was staying in like the Chinatown area or just outside of Chinatown. And I, and there was a really nice coffee shop a block or so from the hotel.
[00:52:02]
And I went for a run in the morning and I got there at like 730 and they were closed. And dude, man, what are you doing?
[00:52:10] Darleen Scherer:
It's crazy, man. I know. Yeah. I'm, I'm shocked in Denver a lot too, where I'm like, uh, just a food place will be closed. On a day. I'm like, why do you close on Sundays? You know what I mean?
[00:52:23]
Like, that's like one of your, that's one of your heaviest volume days.
[00:52:28] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. You were talking a lot about, and I think I saw it on your website as well, as you sort of just, a lot of what you're doing now isn't just the product of, of coffee or the operations, but also just like branding and, and positioning.
[00:52:40] Darleen Scherer:
Yeah. So that's like really what I'm doing. Yeah. It's like, so the company's called Black Sheep. I kind of just came up with this name because I'm like, I feel like I've always been a black sheep and the idea is like own your difference. You know, like lean into it because like, that's kind of where you're special and where you're unique.
[00:52:57]
And so everyone that I talk to, like, that's kind of the first thing that we talk about is like, okay, tell me about You and what you're doing. Cause so I do everything from brand positioning. And then I work with partners who do graphic design, web stuff. They'll, they do all the graphic parts, but I'll basically do all the brand work beforehand and I'll do competitive landscape analysis.
[00:53:21]
So who are the top 10 competitors? Like if it's, you know, if they're a regional coffee roaster, I'll be like, who are the top players in your region, you know, and what are they doing? And I do a. SWOT analysis, like strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats. What's their value proposition? It seems it's really a tedious process and, and some people are kind of like, Oh, I don't, I kind of know who my competitors are.
[00:53:43]
I'm like, let me just do this because like I have all these preconceived ideas before going into it, but then you always find out like kind of cull all that information and you're like, well, here's an opportunity for you. Like these guys are all sort of saying this kind of stuff and this is where your product is unique, where you can position yourself, you know, for example, like it could be something as simple as like this, this company and, uh, in Minnesota that I was talking to, like they're, they roast with an air roaster.
[00:54:14] Josh Sharkey:
What's that?
[00:54:14] Darleen Scherer:
And. It's like, I mean, it's just most, it's kinda like an air frying.
[00:54:20]
an air fry. No, no, no, no. Uh, I don't know what an, I don't even have an air fryer. It's just like a different method of roasting. So most do it in a drum, you know, and it rotates and you're doing this profile. So air roasting, it's just a different method.
[00:54:32]
It's like hot air that's blowing the coffee around, and then you control it in a different way. But it's a different, it's a unique process. It's pretty rare. And I don't know, you get different. Types of coffee out of it, you know, and so,
[00:54:48] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, coffee that is roasted on a fluid bed of hot air as opposed to the traditional method of tumbling and hot steel drum.
[00:54:56] Darleen Scherer:
Oh, nice. Where'd you get that answer? That's correct. Google. Oh, is it AI's Google? Google's AI? Yeah,
[00:55:01] Josh Sharkey:
Which by the way is getting a lot better. It's crazy though, but don't,
[00:55:05] Darleen Scherer:
I don't you think like, what is that going to do as a marketer? I'm like, what is that going to do for Google ads? You know what I mean? Like, or your search engine optimization, which has always been a pain point for everyone or like, how do I get better SEO results?
[00:55:17]
And you're like, I don't know, do you really even need to worry about it anymore? Cause like if you Google kind of look at the top result, which is an AI answer.
[00:55:24] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. Well, it depends on the, on what you're optimizing for, but I, you know, if you look for tell me the 10 best coffee roasters in my area.
[00:55:34] Darleen Scherer:
And I might have
[00:55:34] Josh Sharkey:
an answer, but then how do you get in that top 10?
[00:55:36] Darleen Scherer:
That's right. Yeah. You need a link. That's
[00:55:38] Josh Sharkey:
probably an interesting thing to figure out.
[00:55:40] Darleen Scherer:
Yeah. Yeah.
[00:55:42] Josh Sharkey:
Like chat GPT, at least, and maybe Google does this and I'm not sure, but they will, they'll cite sources. that's really helpful. I think you might have to ask, yeah, you might have to ask, but I, like, I know sometimes when I'm looking at, I'm looking for statistics or data, I will ask chat GPT to like make sure you give me the source.
[00:56:00] Darleen Scherer:
Yeah. The source is
[00:56:00] Josh Sharkey:
not always right, by the way. So there's still work
to do there.
[00:56:03] Darleen Scherer:
Oh yeah, I know.
[00:56:04] Josh Sharkey:
It's pretty helpful in general.
[00:56:06] Darleen Scherer:
That's cool. Anyway, so just differentiating. You know what I mean? It can be as simple as that, but just like kind of leading into that part of your differentiation, you know?
[00:56:15]
And then you just, uh, You know, validate things with like testimonials and stuff like that. And then I don't know. So I work with people from all of that, from brand positioning. Sometimes that means like doing their logo or a brand refresh. I'm doing a brand refresh right now. This guy who's got this really cool product, it's a new type of coffee lid.
[00:56:36]
He's an engineer, but he's also happens to be a super taster. So it like, and the super taster part of his experience wasn't on anything that he was talking about. And I'm like, if you're trying to reach. It's primary target. And also I was like, your primary target is like coffee roasters with multiple retail locations,
[00:56:53]
know, that's your primary target. And then, you know, and then you can get the like small, like independent single shop places, but you really need those folks to buy in. Cause those are, that's where they've got the staff. They've got the Q graders and all the people who care about the difference in this lid and how that sensory perception is different.
[00:57:11]
Better how you get a better mouth feel because of he just changed to, he changed a couple of things with the hot lid and it's really interesting. But anyways, he was just like not getting, he's getting decent sales, but like not enough, you know? And so we're doing a re a brand refresh, but also I'm like, that's like the other day he told me that it was a super taste, but I'm like, that's amazing.
[00:57:34]
And that's going to be part of your story. And super tasters are. I don't know, they're sort of like unicorns, you know, it's like, and I asked him all these questions. I'm like, Oh, you're sensitive to paper ink, you know, like newspaper ink, and he's like, Oh, yeah, I can't stand it. And like, you know what I mean?
[00:57:49]
Like, so they're almost like they're super sensitive, but they really get the nuances. That's amazing. Yeah, yeah, I know.
[00:57:57] Josh Sharkey:
Does he deploy that sort of only towards coffee? Because that sounds like something that's universally if you're just tasting wine or.
[00:58:04] Darleen Scherer:
Yeah, it's everything, you know, like, he doesn't like spicy food, you know, it's like you, you just get the nuances and stuff, you know, which is great.
[00:58:14]
And like, you know, so a sommelier, for example, or like a Q grader and coffee there. Basically equivalence, like you are trying to discern that nuance and to grade, you know, and so like someone who's a super taster tends to be a very good cupper, coffee cupper, you know, but like, you're not going to want to go out to dinner with them to like a Mexican place because they're going to be like way too spicy.
[00:58:40] Josh Sharkey:
That's like always something I've thought about for people that have like incredibly Perceptive palates is one.
[00:58:46]
I wonder how enjoyable things are when you write every little element. And then two, is it sort of a bias if you're trying to measure subjectively or objectively how good something is? Because if most people can't even taste what you're tasting,
[00:59:02]
Do they like it more or less because of that? And it becomes like this very skewed evaluation or something. If you have that like really, really, really intense, like ability to to perceive things.
[00:59:13] Darleen Scherer:
I think it's good for, how do I say this, if I had a coffee company and a super taster came to my place, I would want them to really like my coffees, like, okay, like, you know what I mean?
[00:59:27]
Like you're getting these nuances and I'm doing a great job. Like I'm bringing out the essence of what's here and it's not going to be too overwhelming. Well, I guess it could be maybe. Yeah. Maybe if it's like a natural, that's like just exploding with like berry flavors or,
[00:59:45]
You know, and that's interesting too, they might not like it cause it tastes fermented and stuff.
[00:59:50]
But I think like having that, I don't know. Anyways, I think it's like a really interesting, like, he's like, he's actually a coffee geek and he's an engineer and he just happens to be a super taster. And so he's like, Improve the lid. So anyways, like, I love that. And he's just like such a character.
[01:00:08] Josh Sharkey:
I think that's such a smart way to go about brand building and differentiation is just embracing the things that are your, whatever makes you unique.
[01:00:15]
It's funny. I think about my kids all the time. Like I'm really adamant about, you know, anything that is, whether it seems like a strength or a weakness. Just like, own it and like, figure out how that becomes, even if it's a weakness, how does that become, like what makes you you and embrace it as opposed to trying to hide it or like run away from it.
[01:00:34] Darleen Scherer:
I think as humans
[01:00:36] Josh Sharkey:
and maybe Because of how parenting was or something, but like for a long time, that was never really a conversation. Like, we often are like trying to like hide the things that are weaknesses. But, in some scenario, a weakness is a strength in almost any, you know, you know what I mean?
[01:00:53] Josh Sharkey:
At least in one place.
[01:00:55] Darleen Scherer:
You know what, that's so funny, like I even say that to my partner, she's like this, such a sensitive soul, you know, and struggles with anxiety and depression and feels things like so extremely, you know, but like, you know, I say to her, you know, when she, especially when she's down, I'm like, this is what makes you so great is you're, you know, You're so, you get people, you're so sympathetic and you're empathic and, you know, like you, that's also your strength, like you are so, she's so in tune with how other people are feeling, and she can see when someone's a little uncomfortable, like at a party or whatever, and she'll go over to them and talk to them or get them something, you know what I mean, and I'm just like, You know, I'm not like that.
[01:01:42]
Unfortunately, like, I'll just be talking or whatever. You know what I mean? Yeah, whatever. It's that's made my strength
[01:01:48] Darleen Scherer:
Strength. Yeah. Yeah. Differences.
[01:01:50] Josh Sharkey:
I just had that conversation in couple's therapy last night with my wife because where she is that she is like incredibly empathetic and feels so much and there's so much beauty in that.
[01:02:02]
And of course it becomes really tough because that also creates anxiety and all the other things for herself. And I'm the opposite where like, I like very little emotion and, and it's, you know, there's a lot of downside to that. But then of course, as it relates to like being an entrepreneur or like building businesses, that becomes like this huge superpower, right?
[01:02:23]
Because you just keep going and there isn't like a, you know?
[01:02:27] Darleen Scherer:
Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. It'll be hard being an entrepreneur. It's hard to be a real sensitive soul. All right. You know what I mean? You just have to like have this exterior of like, okay, next did work next. You know what I mean? Like that was, that was a huge screw up next.
[01:02:42] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:02:44] Darleen Scherer:
It'd be great if it was all victories, but.
[01:02:46] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, it's, I feel like is, is about. 99 shitshows for every one, you know, awesome thing and you just gotta like, you know, be okay with all the shitshows and things that go wrong because it's the one, you know, you gotta get one thing right every, you know, every day or week or month or whatever it is and not like go into deep, dark depression every time something goes wrong.
[01:03:08] Darleen Scherer:
Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. And also like, I think framing it that way. with her, it's like, it's okay that you feel so intense right now about this. It'll pass, and this is part of your superpower. Yeah. I think that's also part of the whole, like, depression cycle, right? It's like, feeling this certain kind of way, like, everything feels like so overwhelming.
[01:03:30]
You're like, it'll pass.
[01:03:31] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. And
[01:03:32] Darleen Scherer:
what you're feeling is valid. I'm sorry that you're feeling it so strongly, like, I should probably feel it, like, you're not wrong. Yeah.
[01:03:39] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. That was a big unlock for me with, cause I'm terrible at like, I just am not great at like perceiving those emotions and then I always want to fix things.
[01:03:51]
I don't know if, you know, obviously people are, you know, some people are like that. And what I, somebody told me something recently, I forget, I forget who, but you know, when someone, especially if somebody is that sort of empath and they're, Depressed or feeling down, whatever the thing is, the best thing is actually just to be that with them and be there with them and,
not like, you know, try to fix it for them because, you
[01:04:14] Darleen Scherer:
know, cause then they feel
[01:04:16] Josh Sharkey:
like they're more alone, you know, that they're like,
[01:04:19] Darleen Scherer:
Sounds like we're the same. Yeah, yeah, I know that's because I'm the same way. I think it's just like, I don't know, it's maybe that's what makes us good entrepreneurs or cause we're like, Oh, that's broken. Fix it. Yeah. You know, Oh, how do we, how do we correct that? Oh, that person didn't show up. Like, let's call this person. We're always like troubleshooting, troubleshooting, troubleshooting, you know?
[01:04:38]
And so I only recently realized this and it's like, I don't have to solve things, you know, it's not a problem to be solved, but just be like, that sucks that you're feeling that way. You know what I mean? And just like be empathic and be like, you're not wrong. Like that sucks and it'll pass, you know, but like, just.
[01:04:58]
Turn off for the day. Like, you don't need to finish today. Just like, chill out. I don't know, just go for a walk or whatever, but like, don't worry about anything. Like, just feel it and get through it.
[01:05:09] Josh Sharkey:
It's so hard too, and it also, I don't know about you, I'm like, why am I like, in my mid 40s almost and I'm only starting to figure out like, oh yeah, maybe I should, I should emotionally connect with people.
[01:05:20] Darleen Scherer:
I don't know, I mean, I think like, yeah, we're just always going to be learning, you know, and I think like until, hopefully until the day I die, just like. Growing and getting better and learning. But yeah, I feel that I'm the same. Like I did, I never really went to therapy until recently. I'm just around COVID where I was just like, I was so depressed.
[01:05:42]
I saw this therapist like on zoom or whatever. And like first meeting, she was like, you're an extrovert. No wonder you're depressed. I'm like, I am, you know, I like had no idea. I was like, Oh, it makes sense. I was working remotely and she was like, Oh, that job's not right for you. I'm like, Oh, the job's great.
[01:06:00]
I will get out. I will be around people, you know, but yeah, I think like COVID just like made me realize like, gosh, I just need, I get energy from people. I need to be around people. Even if, even if it's just a stupid little interaction at the grocery store, it helps me, it like gives me some energy, but like, you know, staying in day after day. You know, just with one other person was not enough.
[01:06:25] Josh Sharkey:
No, no. I don't think it's good for anybody.
[01:06:27] Darleen Scherer:
Yeah. Well, I don't know. Some people, I feel like they were writing books and making movies and I think certain people are just like true introverts and they're like, no, I think, yeah, it'd be great, but yeah, it's not, not, not me at all.
[01:06:40] Josh Sharkey:
Well, this was awesome.
[01:06:43] Darleen Scherer:
Oh yeah, oh my God, it was so great.
[01:06:45] Josh Sharkey:
I can't believe it's been this long since we caught
up. I don't remember how we, I think I saw you writing about something or talking about something on LinkedIn.
[01:06:52] Darleen Scherer:
Yeah, yeah. Well, what's going on? Tell me about you. Like, tell me about meez. Like, how's it going?
[01:07:00]
It seems like you've raised a ton of money and you're building this cool company and lots of restaurants are using it. Like, tell me.
[01:07:08] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, I mean look I, I love, love what I'm doing here. I, you know, there's times I miss cooking, but I really love what we're building and I, you know, I realized that, you know, I started looking for this tool when I was running Bark, actually, and it didn't exist and all I could find was like finance software.
[01:07:24]
I'm like, what is, why is there not like a, Tool for like the things we do in the kitchen. So I was really excited to like, get into this and build this. And it was obviously I had no idea what it was like to build software, but it spent a lot of time prior, like, you know, researching and learning and, and yeah, it, you know, we launched like 2021.
[01:07:42]
It's been awesome. Be like, I think, you know, we're blessed, like we're selling to an industry that I love and that I, you know, spent my whole life. And so I'm just like, Solving problems that I wanted to have solved. So it's fun. And we have like 30,000 someone kitchens and chefs using the tool
growing really fast and yeah, we've raised a bunch of cash.
[01:08:01] Josh Sharkey:
Although like, I'm not a big fan of raising money, but it's a necessity, especially when you are building technology and you want to like, make sure you keep innovating. So it's good. You know, we're doing some, some new things now with like helping chefs and mixologists and anybody with like how to get more value out of their like IP, their recipes.
[01:08:20]
And then we created this, this network of all these shows and podcasts and blogs and things related to all the stuff we, you know, we love about the industry. So it's, it's been a lot of fun and it's going really well. I mean, it's interesting. It's all about growth in this, in this space. So one thing I've been trying to like work on is balancing The speed of growth with just being way more mindful of like all the like stuff we've already have out in the market, the customers are using and making sure that we're like improving those things because, you know, when you, when you raise capital for venture, you start this race that's basically as soon as you start raising from venture capital, they're like, okay, keep growing, you know, keep tripling and do do to triple and you can, you know, Do that if you figured out the, the model, but you know, at some point you're like, are you doing this so you can keep growing or are you doing it so you can like, you know, have this impact on the industry.
[01:09:15]
And so that's been a, like a, uh, something I've been thinking about a lot lately, but generally speaking, I, I just, I love it. I love what we're building. It's awesome.
[01:09:23] Darleen Scherer:
That's cool. Like, yeah, growing, like doing something totally different. Are you, do you have an advisor or like who's helping you with the financial part of it?
[01:09:32] Josh Sharkey:
I just had to learn all that, honestly. I mean, I have like, I mean, I do have, I mean, I've like had a lot of help along the way prior to launching meez after Bark. I started this restaurant group called Aurify Brands. I became the chief operating officer that was on the plan, but they had, you know, these, the CEOs of these guys, John and Andy, they used to own a bunch of Dunkin Donuts actually in subways and then they bought five guys in New York and then we just started building brands, you know, within that company.
[01:09:56]
That's actually where I built meez and they funded the initial part of it. Oh, cool. And they were a huge help in just like starting to understand More of like unit economics and fundraising, you know, at least at a sort of fundamental level because they came from a very different, you know, background than me and I had never really interacted with people like that and they were super smart.
[01:10:17]
So they were very helpful in the beginning as well as the CFO, this guy named Rob Garrett. And then along the way, I just, I've had like really, like I've gotten really lucky with like, like really incredible investors. You know, from all walks of life, like hospitality and other technology companies, and we have that co-founder. Instacart is one of our investors, and BentoBox, and SuperHuman, and
[01:10:39] Darleen Scherer:
Oh my God, that's amazing. Wow.
[01:10:42] Josh Sharkey:
And growth folks like Lenny Wachitzki, like a lot of folks that just
[01:10:45] Darleen Scherer:
Yeah.
[01:10:46] Josh Sharkey:
Both are great for just like network and also just asking questions, you know, so I feel like that was something I learned with the restaurants is you got to find really like investors that, I mean, I had caring investors at Bark, but finding investors that actually really know a lot more than you about things that you have to make sure you get right.
[01:11:07] Darleen Scherer:
Mm. Yeah. Wow. Honestly. Yeah. That's, um, that's amazing.
[01:11:12] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah.
[01:11:13] Darleen Scherer:
You think you'll have companies after this?
[01:11:15] Josh Sharkey:
Oh, yeah.
[01:11:17] Darleen Scherer:
Yeah. That's like,
[01:11:18] Josh Sharkey:
I have to whisper that because my wife's like, dude, why do you keep opening more, starting more businesses? Because I love, like, I just, I love this. And now, to be honest with you, now, I cooked for like 20 years.
[01:11:29]
Like, that's what I did was just, was I cook. And I never, I didn't know anything about like starting businesses. But for other
[01:11:33] Darleen Scherer:
people, not at Bark. You didn't do that at Bark. No,
[01:11:35] Josh Sharkey:
no, no. Like cooking for mostly like in the fine dining world. Like I cooked at like high end restaurants for a very long time. I didn't even think about what being an entrepreneur or starting business is.
[01:11:43]
And so I really didn't start learning about that until my mid to mid thirties, late thirties.
[01:11:49] Darleen Scherer:
Really? Yeah. Wow. How old were you when you opened Bark? 30?
[01:11:52] Josh Sharkey:
28. Yeah.
[01:11:53] Darleen Scherer:
Oh, okay. I did Gorilla when I was 30. Yeah. Yeah.
[01:11:56] Josh Sharkey:
And now like, Yeah. I've learned so much more about starting a business and understanding the TAM and understanding the importance of distribution and what's equal to market.
[01:12:05]
Like there's so many things that like, yeah, geez, that you want to make sure you ask yourself and you answer before you start a business on top of just like making sure that you really love the thing that you're going to do that, like, I'm excited to keep doing it because You know, it's like anything.
[01:12:19]
It's funny. It's like, you know, I learned so much about cooking like you did about coffee and branding. I, you know, became an expert in this field of like cooking at a high level. And that was like 15 years of doing that.
[01:12:31] Darleen Scherer:
Yeah.
[01:12:32] Josh Sharkey:
And now I'm just doing the same thing in the entrepreneurial world. And it's just like, you just have to, it's just time.
[01:12:37]
You know, like over, Over the course of like hundreds and hundreds of like terrible mistakes and dumb decisions. And start, I think there's just keep learning these things. So I'm excited for more businesses because
[01:12:50] Darleen Scherer:
That's cool.
[01:12:51] Josh Sharkey:
It's a, it's fun. What about you?
[01:12:53] Darleen Scherer:
What about you? Same. Like, I really like what I'm doing now. Like helping other people with their brands and stuff. But yeah, I don't know. Like there's always a part of me that like wants. And I think it'll just happen, you know, if it's like a meez for me, or you know what I mean, like, uh, how do I, I don't know if it's tool or if it's a particular product, but
[01:13:15] Josh Sharkey:
You make such great brands though. I mean, like, I just, it's so funny, like there's so many, just for example, coffee shops,
do you actually remember? And,
[01:13:24]
like with Gorilla. And even with Superground, because I didn't, I didn't get to interact with that a lot because I'd already moved, but I did a little bit. When you can evoke that feeling, like, I remember, I remember the feeling of being in that shop and the countertops, and when you start adding the new additions for them, of like, where the scales would be, and them doing the pullovers.
[01:13:43] Josh Sharkey:
And then it's the brand, and like the, the bag, you knew the bag right away when you saw it with the, with the cologne.
[01:13:48] Darleen Scherer:
Yeah.
[01:13:48] Josh Sharkey:
So I'm excited for you to create more companies. Thanks. Thanks.
[01:13:51] Darleen Scherer:
Yeah. It's fun doing it now. Like, uh, I help with someone with a, we call it a brand refresh, but it's a total rebrand.
[01:13:57]
This guy that bought a roaster in Reno and had been around since 1990. Kept the name. You know, and, but we're like, let's just, but he's got a pretty iconic brand right now. This is sort of like that. I mean, I don't know. I'm not, I'm not a graphic designer, but like, I do kind of like help with positioning and like, I, I feel like I'm like a creative director in a way is like, you know, I'm very comfortable.
[01:14:19]
I think like having worked with designers, you know, when I was a general manager and like a lot of my friends are designers. So just like kind of know how to talk to them in a way that they get and like kind of bring out this essence. And, you know, in the end, like, I feel very strongly that that brand, especially with an independent company, the brand is like some reflection of that owner, you know, it's bringing some essence out of that owner because they're the one that's behind it and that's helping them shake that vision.
[01:14:49]
But it's around their kind of uniqueness, you know what I mean? Yeah. Um, so I think it's like amazing that like this guy who's like his whole story has been, he's an engineer that created a lid and I'm like, you're a coffee geek. Yeah. Who's a super taster and an engineer that created a lid. And so that makes even more sense.
[01:15:09]
You know what I mean? Yeah, a hundred percent. But yeah, some, uh, so I love that. And if I can do this for, for the rest of my life, maybe do something else also, but just helping folks kind of find that uniqueness and like how to dive into that more.
[01:15:24] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. I love that. I love that vantage considering how to build a brand.
[01:15:28]
Well, thank you for Oh my god, time today.
[01:15:31] Darleen Scherer:
My God. Yeah. Thanks. It was great catching up with you. Yeah, . Yeah.
[01:15:34] Josh Sharkey:
Thanks for tuning into The meez podcast. The music from the show is a remix of the song Art Mirror by an old friend, hip hop artist Fresh Daily. For show notes and more, visit getmeez.com/podcast.
[01:15:45]
That's G E T M E Z dot com forward slash podcast. If you enjoyed the show, I'd love it if you could share it with fellow entrepreneurs and culinary pros, and give us a five star rating wherever you listen to your podcasts. Keep innovating, don't settle, make today a little bit better than yesterday, and remember, it's impossible for us to learn what we think we already know.
[01:16:05] Josh Sharkey:
See you next time.
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