[00:04:40]
Oh, he's burning. Yeah. But I remember another hazing that was like, I mean, hazing is the wrong word, by the way. It's like, you know. Or like, uh, you know, exit? Exit. Farewell. Yeah. We'll call it a farewell. But, I mean, this was terrible actually. Yeah. Cafe, Gray We have pictures of this. Got a blow up doll, and we tied, I forget who it was, to the doll, and then we threw water balloons at him that had food coloring in it.
[00:05:07]
The food coloring worked a deal, I remembered PJ, and I remembered, okay, you know what, let's put some food coloring in here.
[00:05:12] PJ Calapa:
I was blue for a week. I went to eat at the Danube the next day, and I was talking to a woman next to us who was an artist, and they sent out Blue Spatzle as a continuation of the Farewell, Let It Be.
[00:05:26]
And she's like, Oh, I did it. I did an event once where I only made red food. And I like pull my pant leg up, and then my leg was still blue. He's like, Are you part of the Blue Man Group? Like it wasn't even around yet. I think they invented the Blue Man Group. That's so, that's hilarious. It was great. And it was like, you know.
[00:05:43]
I didn't, I never was upset by it and I was very, like, gracious at the time and understanding what it was and, you know, that restaurant did a lot for my sort of psyche at that time.
[00:05:55] Josh Sharkey:
We're gonna talk about Bouley as well. I luckily, this is always like the fun part about doing these things, I get to, I just have an excuse for either myself or my assistants, like, do a bunch of research on people like you, and I didn't realize where you're from. Groundsville, Texas, right? Literally, right?
[00:06:10] PJ Calapa:
Yeah, I was probably in Mexico like two or three times a week. That's great. As either like dinner with parents or drinking underage or, you know, it's definitely an interesting border town. Now, my best friend ever in the world is the mayor of our, that town, which is obviously now very sort of, it's a very interesting town now because of immigration and also space X.
[00:06:34]
Like Elon Musk is all up in my hometown, which is in your hometown. He built, that's where they fly the rockets to Mars, which is even more like, wait a minute.
[00:06:44] Josh Sharkey:
That's nuts. Brownsville's not supposed to, like. So you're from this town, Brownsville, really, really southern, southern part of Texas. As far south as you can go.
[00:06:52] PJ Calapa:
Both of my parents grew up there. Uh, my mom's family came from Spain like 250 years ago. My dad is from, my dad's dad is from Bentonhurst.
[00:07:02] Josh Sharkey:
Oh wow, so it's like the Spanish, you know, migration.
[00:07:03] PJ Calapa:
Like, yeah, like King Ranch, all those guys. I mean, it was North Mexico at the time and then it turned into Texas, but we've been always in this very interesting place of.
[00:07:13]
We live in Mexico or Texas, but we are Spanish, whichever, you know, whatever that meant. You definitely spoke the language and you assimilated in the culture. And then my dad's dad was born in Benzenhurst and fought in the war and then made a friend in the war. And he was like, I'm going back to Brooklyn.
[00:07:30]
And his buddy was like, don't go to Brooklyn, come to Brownsville. It's like a boom town. It's because the Mexican economy was very strong at the time. And he went down and they both started their own businesses and were amazing entrepreneurs. And I like learned a lot from that. What were the businesses they started?
[00:07:46]
My grandfather on my mom's side had a fish business, he had boats, and then he, they banned commercial fishing in Texas, so he started importing fish from Mexico and selling it all over the country. Wait, they banned commercial fishing in Texas? Commercial fin fish. Oh, fin fish, got it. They still looked at a lot of shrimp.
[00:08:00]
Yeah. But then he started importing fish from Mexico and selling it all over the country, which I mean, at the time, what a thing to know as a chef now, but at the, I didn't know anything about it. Yeah. And then my dad's dad started a men's clothing store, like high end Italian suits and he was like the Italian from Brooklyn.
[00:08:17]
So all these guys were like, if you're going to buy a suit, buy it from him. And they're Southern Italian, right? Yeah, Sicilian. Oh, wow. Sicilian and then Spanish side Santander. Wow. So like two, North and South, but two amazing cultures to be surrounded by. Obviously food and family were always very important things.
[00:08:37]
And so those things were just kind of instilled in me there and then you throw in the Mexican culture on top of it. It's a very like,
[00:08:43] PJ Calapa:
and we had the beach, so I loved to fish. I grew up around the water and it's a very interesting place to grow up, but made I think moving to New York kind of maybe easier because I had seen so much already at that point.
[00:08:56] Josh Sharkey:
But so funny is most of your career, Bouley. EMP, Nobu, Japanese, Japanese, French, more Japanese, more Japanese, more French, but no Italian until you got to,
[00:09:13] PJ Calapa:
No Italian, I mean I remember Eli and I, we were talking about Eli called before, we were roommates, we met in culinary school, we were roommates, we were roommates here, we started a little business, we were sous chefs, we were like a catering company. That's so funny. So proud. So
[00:09:28]
We would cook on our days off, you know, and make a little extra cash. What was it called? Sprout like sprout chefs. Like we're just blossoming. It was honestly, it was brilliant. And we had some. We did some very cool events that were great, but Eli was a Sous at Del Posto and I was like, Eli, Italian, what?
[00:09:48]
Come on, bro. I'm like, this is kind of hack, isn't it? And then I realized, like, it was the food of my culture and understanding, like, I really loved it. And I had learned so much at Nobu that I figured out that I loved raw fish and I love pasta. And then so I kind of, those things came together and then that was sort of, ah, this is where I should be going.
[00:10:10]
And I also reached a point where I'm like, if I open a Japanese restaurant, they're going to be like, who the fuck is this big, big white guy? Spaniard,
[00:10:18] Josh Sharkey:
Texas, Mexican. He speaks perfect Spanish and he's not Japanese. It's such a crazy, like, amalgamation of food, but I'm sure it impacts, like, how you cook today.
[00:10:28] PJ Calapa:
Surely, surely, and obviously constantly, like, kind of putting those things together and understanding sort of flavor profiles, but people will always be like, how did you work at Nobu for so long? I'm like, food is food, you know what I mean? You understand, cooking is cooking, right? We understand ingredients, the difference of ingredients, but cooking is cooking, you know?
[00:10:46] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, I will say, though, like, Learning to cook, you know, sort of traditional, sort of a, like, French or American style food, like, you know, at a, at a Bouley, or a EMP, or a Gramercy, or something. Right. Like, It's very different from learning how to cook Japanese food. It's true.
[00:11:04] PJ Calapa:
But you're learning technique over ingredients, right?
And those are two different things. Yeah. I always say that my like, my brain is French and my heart is Italian. I'm very technique driven and I like systems and I like it to be exactly, but I like you to be able to be free and like, be creative and. Cook like your grandmother's cooking, you know what I mean?
[00:11:24]
She's not measuring, she's cooking. But in our restaurants, we need them to measure, right? Mm hmm. If you were making every meal and every dish, then we could do it however we want. Yeah. But obviously, that's not how, that's not how the business works.
[00:11:35] Josh Sharkey:
Nope, nope, it's not. Hence, uh. Unless you, yeah, unless you want to be a one man show. Exactly. It's funny, because I'm, uh, Benno is going to come on the show on Friday. Yeah. This week, and I've been thinking about, like, things to ask him about, because there's such a huge dichotomy between precision and pristine. You know, like high end cooking and, you know, the soul of a grandma and cooking like that.
[00:11:58]
And they're, they're almost like, you know, contradictory. And like, how do you blend the two?
[00:12:02] PJ Calapa:
Which is why I feel like pasta has always been that kind of connector for me where I'm like in a, in a fancy restaurant, like we're in this neighborhood now. I worked at iFiori for years and I would be like first course.
[00:12:13]
I want it to feel like something you never had before. And the pasta was mid course. I wanted to feel like your grandmother made it. And then last course, maybe like a blend of those two things, like first one, you want to kind of be surprised by, and then the pasta, you want to feel like you feel warm by it, right?
[00:12:30]
And not, and it doesn't have to be overly creative and it shouldn't be overthought, right? It should be like from
[00:12:35] Josh Sharkey:
What makes great pasta. I mean, people always like overcomplicated over sauce or thing.
[00:12:41] PJ Calapa:
Well, I mean, first and foremost, I think
understanding that the shape and the noodle is the most important part, right? And everything else around it is just like extra. So. And the texture of different pastas is what sort of creates what it does. And then you should never be able, you can't like, you can't say, Oh, we're making bolognese tonight. Let's use capellini. Right. And you're like, it's going to get lost. You know what I mean?
[00:13:03]
You need to give it, there's a balance of like texture to sauce. And I think, I mean, texture is probably the most important part, but dry pasta, fresh pasta, this, they're all different things. I think they're all, I think there's a very much like a nostalgia to what pasta does for Us, no matter what, we're a noodle in itself, whether it being in China or in Italy or, you know what I mean?
[00:13:27] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, you hear the word pasta, you immediately think of Italian food, but like, my wife's from the Midwest. Yeah. Man, she makes this, uh, chicken paprikash, and like, she's making these, she makes these dumplings. Yeah. I don't think she realizes what she's making, but like They're insanely delicious and tender, and like, in little pillows, and completely, like, Hungarian, like, completely Hungarian, you know, like, nothing Italian about that, but like, every, like, what's every like we get
[00:13:52] PJ Calapa:
into mostly, like, the cultural mixes of cuisine, right? Like, obviously, I think every culture has a chicken and rice dish, and every culture has a, some sort of dumpling, or some sort of noodle, or some sort of flatbread, you know? Like, My wife's Indian, you know, you worked with her at Tabla and it was first time I went to her house. I was like, Oh, biryani. It's arroz con pollo.
[00:14:16]
And then I was like, Oh, there's flatbread, it's tortillas. And I'm like, I'm home.
[00:14:20] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. It's the same thing. It's funny too, Indian cuisine is a lot like Mexican cuisine. Very much so. And then like, there's so many different regions. But all inspired
[00:14:28] PJ Calapa:
from, you know, the Portuguese at some point and, you know, there was no tomatoes and cilantro in India until 1500. Like that's, that blows people's mind. Yeah. There's no chilies in India. Yeah. Those. Like, people are like, Oh, yeah, just, you just assume that that's just the way they've eaten for years, you know, but they always had black pepper.
[00:14:47] Josh Sharkey:
Well, I want to kind of wind a little bit of like your like career because like now you are sort of like not full circle, but you went back to, yeah, kind of full circle, but you started at Bouley.
[00:14:57]
We worked together in early 2000s. You started the next turn on the, uh, on the, I think you were in Garde mange, right? I remember you making, like, tureens.
[00:15:06] PJ Calapa:
Oh my god, lobster on a choked tureen. That one? Yeah. I got the eggplant tureen to a place that was magical. Where Cesar would be like, who made this? It wasn't you.
[00:15:16]
Tama made this, right? And I was like, no, I made it. Was that before or after? He said, where are my keys? Where are my fu Where are my keys? They were in my pocket. I looked down and I was like,
[00:15:26] Josh Sharkey:
Oh. Sorry to say that. I love you. I mean, it was so long ago. I have things I took away from every, every job that are very like non culinary takeaways.
But what do you think? What did you take away? That was your first real, first and
[00:15:40] PJ Calapa:
foremost was discipline. And the fact that it was like, I wasn't a kid anymore. Like I'd gone to school on, I'd gone to Texas A&M and Wanted to be all these things. I had worked at a restaurant before, Christopher's World Grill, shout out to Christopher's, but it was not like at that level.
[00:15:57] PJ Calapa:
And Bouley 04 was pretty much like the highest, it was the highest level of New York City kind of at the time. Right. We were all waiting for Per Se to open, but it was all, you know, it was all. And immediately I realized like what kind of caliber it was. It was like the big leagues and I, and I had opportunity to be in it.
[00:16:13]
And I wanted to be in it. I liked the speed. I didn't have a problem with the pace. 80 hour weeks, 90 hour weeks, so the one day off Tuesday, you know, like the doubles on Sunday. Because then when I saw, like, how beautiful the food was, it made me just be so, I think, understanding of what the potential could be.
[00:16:31]
I loved the food. The food, the quality of the food, and the, like, the, the beauty and the flavors were incredible. Everything else was fucking backwards. It was a shitshow. I mean, they would, I was, like, first week of the job, and Evan comes around, Evan Rich, and he's like, what do you need for tomorrow? And he has a piece of parchment paper in his hand, and I'm like, Parchment paper?
[00:16:52]
This? You're going to trust me on what we need for tomorrow? Like, what kind of, what kind of And then I paid attention to that, and I made sure that I always had what I needed. But I knew then, in that day, that I would never run it that way. Yeah. Because we're, it's too hard, right? The restaurant business is hard, and cooking is hard, and I learned, I think, from there to be, to take all the variables out of the equation, right?
[00:17:17]
Like, scheduling, and ordering, and Inventory and all those things that are like the boring shit that nobody wants to do. But if you take that out of the equation, then we can like actually focus on what we're here to do, which is to make this. Delicious food, you know, and add volume, which is what we need in New York, right?
[00:17:35] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, and obviously it was a very positive experience, but so much to learn about like, yeah, what not to do. There was no sous chef. No, no, I mean, Evan was sort of sous, but he was meat roast. I thought he was the sous chef. But he was meat roast. Well, it's crazy. And Cesar was fish roast as the CDC. I mean, it doesn't, Yeah, I struggled there, man.
[00:17:54]
I, I, I came from Tabla, where, I mean, to be honest, I, I, I did really well there. And then I left and went to, to, to work for Kunz. Yeah. Which I should've stopped right there. Yeah, and, you know, crushed it there as well, but like, honestly, I struggled at, at Bouley.
[00:18:09] PJ Calapa:
Bouley didn't make it easy on anybody.
[00:18:10] Josh Sharkey:
No, and I, that's They wanted you to fail.
[00:18:12] PJ Calapa:
The first three months I was there, I saw 13 people.
[00:18:14] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. Either you quit or we're fired. And not in a good way, it wasn't like a, you know, like survival of the fittest in a good way either. I mean,
[00:18:23] PJ Calapa:
I remember Josh getting there in the morning and being like, I have a list of things to do and I want to do them right and there's no recipes.
[00:18:30]
And they're like. Yeah. Yeah. And then they would, almost to the point where like they wanted you to fail. Like the eggplant terrine, there's the two till skillets in the basement, right? The one on the right you couldn't cook anything in, you could only boil in. But I didn't know that. And then I, I'm starting to sear eggplant and all these people are walking by me.
[00:18:49] PJ Calapa:
And they're like, he's gonna go down and not one person was like, Hey bro, you shouldn't. Yeah. You shouldn't do that.
[00:18:56] PJ Calapa:
Until there's smoke in the dining room during lunch and Cesar's coming down and yelling at me.
[00:18:59] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah.
[00:19:00] PJ Calapa:
And I remember looking in his eyes and I was like, Hey, I want to do this the right way. If you give me a little bit of guidance, I'm going to do it the right way every single time. But if you don't tell I'm gonna fail. What did he say? He just looked at me mad and he was like, Rrrr! And he went back upstairs. That moment on he sort of trusted me in saying, Alright, there's an opportunity to give him a little bit more.
[00:19:19]
Or try to show him. That was insightful of you to say that. I wish I had that sort of insight. I'm like, I'm not afraid of you yelling at me. Yeah. That part, that part, Let's let's get to the main goal here and let's do this together. We need to do this together
[00:19:33] Josh Sharkey:
It's when the biggest takeaways are just you have to set clear expectations and let people know what success looks like Oh, I mean, I remember making the ocean herbal broth, which is like one of the most famous thing.
[00:19:43]
Yes still So delicious. Which is insane. Which is insane. How many herb purees
[00:19:49] PJ Calapa:
and how many herb vegetable purees.
[00:19:51] Josh Sharkey:
No recipe. No explanation. Peel the fennel. No explanation of any of these things, yet this is like the signature dish.
[00:19:58] PJ Calapa:
But it's the signature dish. Can you imagine?
[00:20:00] Josh Sharkey:
And, and you're just supposed to just, you know, figure it out or not figure it out and it's such a terrible way to.
[00:20:05] PJ Calapa:
Do you think that's how like the old French kitchens worked? Or You know,
I don't or
[00:20:10] Josh Sharkey:
I don't know Was Café Gray more Oh, Café Gray I mean, and Tabla was systematic. Yes! Right? Everything was, there was, you know, recipes and, and a clear way of, of, of how to do things, and, and they, they wanted to teach you.
[00:20:22]
Right. I think there was just, it was a very toxic culture that obviously came from the top down. I mean, Yeah. Look, Boulay was one of the most talented chefs in, you know, like Ever. Ever. But, you know, I have so many of his memories. I remember like, Arizeing a steak, because I was on whatever that station was with the foie on the Oh yeah, uh, Panache.
[00:20:41]
Yeah, the Panache. And I'm like, Arizang I'm like, Arizang the steak, and like, Boulay comes up, and he's just like, what the fuck are you doing? And I'm like, Oh, I'm just finishing the steak. He didn't even, by the way, he didn't even say anything to me. He just gave me this look like, you should just go quit life.
[00:20:58]
You should just go crawl under a rock. And then Evan's like, Evan comes up and he's like, yeah, we don't baste here. I'm like, that would have been nice to know. Dude, I remember that.
[00:21:05] PJ Calapa:
There was a moment where they were, we were poaching lobsters and he went through the phase where he didn't want to poach in butter anymore.
We were poaching in like, oil. Canola oil. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like
what? I mean, that's sure.
[00:21:16]
Mm hmm. But yeah, I, I did it off site. Some rich guy paid Boulay to come to his house. We went. It was great. Me and Evan, the whole team, whatever. And it was like 12 people. Who cares, right? I remember coming back, we came back late and we went to spotted pig and it hadn't, it just opened and April was there and obviously, you know, did the whole thing with Bouley.
[00:21:37] PJ Calapa:
The next day I'm on my station, Cesar comes over and he's like, Bouley said he did a good job yesterday. And I was like, finally, like one little, like lift. And he turns to me and goes, I don't give a fuck what Bouley says. And I was like, Oh God, I just like, there's just no winning. There's just, but I was like, all right.
[00:21:57]
I got it. But Cesar got some bad Cesar would offer shit on my station. I didn't have to have. Yeah. And then I got good at it. Yeah. And then I had it, and then it got, he would get mad 'cause I would have it and he'd be like, where's that perfect ded tuna like, and I'm like, here. And he goes, fuck. And he'd walk away.
[00:22:13] Josh Sharkey:
All right dude. But I think it's 'cause he got it too.
[00:22:15] PJ Calapa:
Of course. But then, but this is, and that's a very good point, and, and I think what I did, another takeaway is that because I was abused doesn't mean I needed to. Yes. Needed to continue the abuse. Yeah. I, I took it the other way. I was like, look, I want to run this tight.
[00:22:30]
I want to run this clean. I want people to be inspired here. I want people to stay here. And at the end of the day, it's only my name on the menu, not theirs. Yeah. I'm the only one who looks like the asshole. Yeah. Not them. So if you can lift them, then we can all do this.
[00:22:45] Josh Sharkey:
And we can like, Poor Caesar. You know, I honestly, he did, he did have some really tough. I remember one time we were making this like, Duck Terrine, and I was so excited about it, and we were making, Caesar and I were making it together, and it was just beautiful. Delicious. And we were about to put it on the plate to serve, for like a plate up, pre service, and then Bouley just walks in right before service, and all he does is walks up to Cesar and is like, this isn't a fucking brasserie.
[00:23:10] PJ Calapa:
Oooooh.
[00:23:11] Josh Sharkey:
And he just gives it to him. I was like, damn. I was like, what? Like man,
[00:23:15] PJ Calapa:
But that sardine terrine he loved.
[00:23:16] Josh Sharkey:
Oh, yeah.
[00:23:16] PJ Calapa:
And I would cut that and they would get excited. And he'd be like, just keep doing it like that. I remember that. I'd be like, all right. I, that's, there was some positive reinforcement. Yeah. David had some positive reinforcement. Yes. Yeah. Very little.
[00:23:29] Josh Sharkey:
And I think Evan, Evan excelled there.
[00:23:31] PJ Calapa:
Evan did. Well, I mean, God, we would get to that point too. And I think he met Sarah there and there was like, Evan needed, he started there at what, like 20, you know, from New Jersey, and like, and, and fit right in and was like, this is for me.
[00:23:47]
And I think he kind of, he got past the point of, of being like the peon. And then he was like, all right, now I'm kind of in charge. Yeah. He kind of was in charge. Yeah.
[00:23:57] Josh Sharkey:
I liked working with him. He's very stoic. Me too. Quiet. Me too. And uh, good guy. Yeah. So after Boulay. After Bouley, went back to school, I wanted to,
[00:24:07] PJ Calapa:
Floyd, you know, Floyd is a family, was a family, another RIP, Floyd, Floyd went to the culinary school that my wife's aunt ran in India.
[00:24:16]
Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. So when Floyd moved to the States. They're like, Oh, there's these doctors in New Jersey. If you need anything, call them. And it was my, it's my now in laws. So that's why Archana worked at Tabla before. She worked at Tabla before CIA. She started to savor it and she was like, what the fuck is this? And then she found pastry and fell in love, right?
[00:24:34] Josh Sharkey:
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[00:25:43] PJ Calapa:
But so when I was graduating from school, I was like, I want to work at Tabla. I like, I liked the food. I loved like the flavors. I liked Floyd. I went and trailed. He's like, you're great. Everything's perfect. And he's like, I don't have any spots. Not even in the bread bar? Like, nothing. And it wasn't like he was trying to Yeah. He was recruiting me. Yeah. But he goes, go next door. Eleven Madison's hiring.
[00:26:05]
This is with Cary Heffernan, still there? Cary. And I met Jakel. I met Chris Jakel. He was on The Past that night. And I was like, alright, this'll work. And I don't mind it. And I thought it was gonna be like Bouley. And it was not anything like, I worked five stations in three months. And they just kept being like, why are you doing such a good job?
[00:26:21]
We're going to keep moving you. And I was like, I want to keep learning. I need to like, I want to get pushed a little. Yeah. And my station partner, I was fish on Tremet, was this girl, Anna, who was, Her roommates were all the sous chefs at Nobu downtown. And she's like, they're opening a new Nobu Midtown. And I'd eaten at Nobu and I was like, wow, the food is really doing something to my brain.
[00:26:42]
The way the Bouley food had, you know, like there's those few things where you're like, whoa. And so I went and trailed downtown and it was a. Not where I wanted to be, but I met Matt, who was a chef from London, and they were like opening in Midtown and it was gonna be a brand new restaurant. And it was still that sort of Nobu mentality, but with like a French influence because they were all the British, the London chefs coming.
[00:27:06]
I took the job and I fell in love. I started working on mace and then I was able to like, that's where you started. I started as like lead line cook, but then I, I made a dish. I remember I made a dish before any of the sous chefs had as a special
[00:27:20] Josh Sharkey:
Mm-Hmm. .
[00:27:21] PJ Calapa:
And Matt was like. Do it. We're doing it tonight. And then that, the creative side of me just went. So he kind of reinvented the Omakase station for Savory. It worked Monday to Friday, noon to close, and I was allowed to do whatever I wanted. And I, that's how I stayed for five years. I mean, I would put myself in the shits, man. I would run like ten specials and do a different menu every night and like.
[00:27:45]
Having the best time and Nobu had those, Nobu had regulars that had eaten there so like a hundred times and then all of a sudden they're getting dishes that are sort of in the Nobu style, but different and they were like, anything, we want that. Yeah. And then, you know, the sushi guys would let me cut raw fish.
[00:28:01]
That was a, never had happened before. Yeah. They'd give me a block of tuna at a time. I'm like, guys, I'm not gonna steal it.
[00:28:08] Josh Sharkey:
Like, I'm telling you, I promise. How long did it take to work up to getting them to let you cut fish?
[00:28:16] PJ Calapa:
Uh, probably a year, maybe a more, more than a year. And then like, and there was no butcher at Nobu, right? So everyone butchered their own fish and they, God, they'd walk by and be like, ha ha, full kitchen. But then you get in, you finally, it clicks, you know, and then you start to understand it and you respect it. And then they, and then they would let me do, and then Nobu the man would come in and see these dishes and hear about these dishes.
[00:28:37]
And he'd be like, wow, it's pretty good. And Tamita san from downtown would come up. He was tough, but he would try these dishes and he's like, all right, maybe we'll give this guy a shot, a little shot. How often was Nobu there? 57? Probably like four times a year. Yeah. And that's probably more than he's at most of them, you know?
[00:28:58]
But 57 at the time was the biggest opening. It was the 14th Nobu when it opened in 2005. There's 50 plus now. It's nuts. And speaking of that place, like understanding the opposite of, Everything was to the gram, every recipe to the gram, and they have their like mother sauces, and you don't mess with them, and they're exactly the same every time, and then that, I learned a lot from that, sort of kind of being able to put things together, and sort of using things you've already built, or made, but then tweaking them slightly, you know what I mean?
[00:29:30]
Why'd you leave? I'm sorry, Jagle, and he was being offered, Uh, CDC for Michael White and I mean, my wife still to this day, she's like, if you didn't, if a job didn't fall in your lap, you were never going to leave. Yeah. Cause I loved it. And I, I was allowed to do what I wanted. I was creative. My friends would come eat and they were like, wow.
[00:29:53]
Michael White's family is from the same town as you, right? Michael White's. Grandparents moved to Brownsville as those like Wisconsin people do to escape winter. That's so crazy. Let's fast forward. When I'm interviewing with him at Moorea, which is so surreal, 2010, he asked me where I was from. I said, Texas, South Texas.
[00:30:13]
He goes, not Brownsville. And I said, yeah, Brownsville. And he's like, shut the fuck up. And then we talked about Brownsville for two hours. And at the interview, he goes, you can cook, right? And I'm like, I can cook. And he goes, all right, I guess you got a job. And we open iFiori and I, I wanted it, I knew I needed to, I needed a change.
[00:30:31]
I needed to like, and it was that time where you're like, I'm either going to go like farm to table and like, kind of like, Oh, I'm butchering whole animals or I'm going to go ultra fine dining. And at the time people that worked at Noble were kind of looked as like, not hack, but like volume. But I had this super fine dining in my brain and I, I know I wanted to go back to that, like kind of real delicate stuff. We open iFiori and. It was fine. It wasn't my favorite.
[00:31:02] Josh Sharkey:
Funny space.
[00:31:04] PJ Calapa:
Ah, mean. Dude, second floor of a hotel on 36th and 5th with no sign. I mean, that's like, and I know Michael was coming from Marea, which was like biggest, baddest opening, and it was post 08, so everyone was like, you know, we opened well, and we got three stars, and we got a Michelin star, but it was like, it was very hard for me to keep Kooks happy.
[00:31:25]
And then there was some change, and then I was put in charge, and then it got, then I had a lot of fun. Yeah. Created, I changed the whole menu in a week. It's nuts. And just like, but fun, and I had all the cooks that were like, and sous that were ready to go, and like wanted it. It was the first time I had a huge team.
[00:31:43]
Yeah. Like five sous chefs and 30 cooks, you know? Did you guys have to do uh, um, room service as well? That was part of the deal. That's nice. No room service. We had to do breakfast though. That was the only. Yeah.
[00:31:56] Josh Sharkey:
But. That's not so bad.
[00:31:57] PJ Calapa:
Yeah. No room service. They designed that downstairs and they took care of all that.
[00:32:02]
And we would just head upstairs. Which means we had like a smaller kitchen than we needed.
[00:32:05] Josh Sharkey:
Mm hmm.
[00:32:06] PJ Calapa:
But I didn't mind that because. It was one level. We were efficient and nobody could hide. I could see everyone at all times. You know, like those basement kitchens where you're like, where is that guy? Where'd he go?
[00:32:16]
I went to the dry storage and you're like, half an hour later, he comes back. It was good. And it was, I loved learning from Michael about Italian and it was like, you know, of the Riviera. So we were French too, which I had that in my back pocket. And then we were able to do like, really. It's like working with him.
[00:32:35]
With who? Michael? Yeah. It's great. He was, at that point he already had, had so many restaurants and a lot of people that were the equivalent of me, right, being sort of CDC of, of his space and he just let me run with it, which is the same as what Nobu did. And that's why I stayed. Yeah. Both of them, five and a half years for some reason.
[00:32:56]
And Scampi lasted five and a half years for some reason, that's that magic number for me.
[00:33:00] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah.
[00:33:01] PJ Calapa:
But he let me cook. He inspired obviously some of the menu, but he let me cook what I wanted. He All I ever could ask for. Yeah. And then I ran three restaurants for him at the same time. That's right, that's right.
[00:33:12]
Costada, we opened the steakhouse. And then we took over Bedford Post Inn. There was a point at Altamirano's, I had 15 sous chefs and like a hundred cooks. I remember going to do an event in Mexico. It was me and James Kent, another R.I.P. Yeah. Marcus Glocker and all these guys. And James was about to have like a second restaurant and he's like, how do you do it?
[00:33:34] PJ Calapa:
How do you have more than one? I'm like, second one's the hardest, third one's the easiest. Yeah.
[00:33:40] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. Second one is the, is definitely the hardest. Yeah. Yeah. It is crazy by the way, just as an aside. Like. I mean, I worked for Bouley, Floyd, and Gray, all of whom passed. Yeah, dude. I mean, let's, let's, I mean, we're, oh shit.
[00:33:58]
I don't think I can work for any more chefs. Is there a target on my back? Are you hiring? Because maybe I'll Yeah, we are.
[00:34:05] Josh Sharkey:
I'm opening in Beverly Hills. Do you want to move out west? I'd be LA. I'm going to ask this, you can just pass if you want, what happened with Michael? I mean,
[00:34:16] PJ Calapa:
COVID, COVID happened to everybody, you know, and it was like COVID, I think it was the first time that people were allowed to just really stop.
[00:34:23]
I mean, you know that, I mean, I had, I fired a hundred people in one day and then the moment you didn't want to come back because you were still in that kind of like happy phase of Hey, we have a break where it's not just a break where you're like, Oh, I'm off today. Cause you know, the restaurant's open.
[00:34:39]
It's not like people aren't getting paid. Yeah. I think it was hard for people to come back. You know, I'm like, except that. A business is still a business. You need to like, you know, he's been gone for a year. What's he doing? He's opening a new place here and he opened in Miami. Was he at the family arts club?
[00:34:57]
He was. We've stayed in touch, but you know, nothing like, you know, like any sort of, any work relationship. You kind of, you have it while you have it. And then.
[00:35:07] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. You did some crazy stuff during COVID. I mean, you had like a whole business going. With like, what, what was it?
[00:35:15] PJ Calapa:
Barbecue. I mean, I wanted, I knew we live in the Burbs, we live in the Short Hills. And we had, we had made a lot of friends that were all great people. And we knew everyone was stuck. And I was the owner of two restaurants. It wasn't like I was jumping on unemployment. It was not an option. And there was reached a certain point where I was like, I turned to Arch, now my wife. And I was like, babe, I don't really want to like start something in our backyard.
[00:35:40]
But. We might need some sort of income. I'm from Texas and I wanted to really do like a deep dive on barbecue and she was like, no more toys. And then that, like a weekend Floyd had just died. And I was like, this shit is real. And we may not be like one of our neighbors who is a big regular at Scampi.
[00:36:00]
She's like, Hey, my in laws are here and it's the, like, we're all stuck together. We just make us dinner and I'll pay you whatever. And I made her dinner and it was like, it made me happy. I didn't feel like I was like, you know, like steak got to her house. It was still like sizzling, you know? And I knew I wanted to do barbecue.
[00:36:18]
And so my wife, I told her, look, the only way to do this is that we're smoking meat outside and I can do like 60 pounds of meat at one time and we can do like, I said, 10 meals a week, that's all we're doing. First week we did 10, second week we did 20, third week we did 30 and then we like kind of capped it at 30 meals.
[00:36:37]
It was great because my wife, Arch, is a pastry chef, but she hadn't worked in a while. Being mom to our wonderful kids, and she was able to be part of the business. And we did something together that was, it was awesome. I mean, it was some of the best times ever. How did you, how did you distribute the food?
[00:36:53]
Arch and I would deliver it. Well, cause we live in Short Hills. So like, literally the town is like this big. We had an app. Oh, so it was all like Only in Short Hills. I mean, we had many rules. We sent out the menu on Monday, there was no alterations, it was dinner for four to six, it was 150 bucks, I never repeated a menu, I had the most, like, the best time, we built everything out of a box, right, like desserts were, everything was delivery, and then on that Friday we would deliver between 5 and 6 and we would get 30 meals delivered in one hour, and people would be waiting at their front door like,
[00:37:29] Josh Sharkey:
We're so happy you're here, you know?
[00:37:31] PJ Calapa:
You guys delivered it? Wow. Well, I would like split it up because we couldn't get all 30 in the car at the same time. So then it was like, I had two shifts.
[00:37:39] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah.
[00:37:40] PJ Calapa:
So it was still going out hot. Yeah. It was crazy. It was fun. We made some money. We had, I mean, I had Pat LaFrieda trucks delivering on my block, you know, and people were like, what the hell's going on?
[00:37:51]
And Pat's like, I'll sell you anything you want. Nobody's buying anything right now. To the point where we had like pallets of stuff coming down, and we created this little Did you have to buy refrigeration? I already had a second really big fridge in my basement, and I had a draw freezer. Yeah. It was enough.
[00:38:08]
It was enough. That's crazy, man. But it was crazy. Well, we were pulling off, but honestly, it was so, it was a quiet time for our sort of lifestyle. I got to spend time with my kids. We got to make really wonderful food that people were still talking about. People still now like, can we ever do that again?
[00:38:24]
I'm like, no, but it was fun. We had a good time. The best part was the rumor. It was like, if you fell off the list, you could never get back on. So people were saying yes to it, even if they couldn't have it, which was not, I didn't put that rumor. It's a good rumor. I didn't put that rumor out. But you know, whoever did.
[00:38:41]
Yeah. You know, we had a good time and it kept us, it kept us afloat. The Spaniard reopened quickly. Scambri took us. Tell me about the Spaniard. I've actually never been. Spaniard is, uh, a bar that I'm a partner in. My partner's there. I was a regular at their first bar, which was Bua. St. Mark's between 1st and A.
[00:39:01]
Oh yeah. So when I was a sous at Nobu, they asked me to do a menu for them. And they opened a bar in Queens called Sweet Afton. So I would do like, All my downtime, I was doing side gig. I was just always kind of just like the catering company with Eli. I did the menu for them at Sweet Afton, and then I did the menu for them at Penrose when I was a chef at iFiori.
[00:39:22]
And by the time that was their third and fifth bar, by the time they were opening the seventh, they're like, stop being our consultant, be our partner, be invest, but you have to invest, you know, and I invested in it. We built a spread. Cool bar with me and Mikey, my partner there. And we had this list of just being like, we want really high end food, but it's still going to be a high volume bar.
[00:39:42]
We still want really nice cocktails, but it's still, you know, and it's seven years later, it's crushing, it's a machine and it's wonderful to have. Takes very little of my time, which is great. What's the style of the food? Just like gastropub, you know, like a perfect double cheeseburger, you know. Oh, so not like Spanish cuisine. No, not at all.
[00:40:06] Josh Sharkey:
That's how bad, that's how little I know when we
[00:40:08] PJ Calapa:
were first opening, we had this guy who was selling like jamon and boquerones and he goes. The Spaniard. Finally. And I was like, dude, we sell burgers and steaks and he goes, shit.
[00:40:20] PJ Calapa:
My partners are all Irish and their favorite bar in the world is called The Spaniard in Cork and we just. Use the name nice. But it's that, it's like iconic space, you know, west Fourth and Barrow Corner Spot, 20 foot Ceilings. Yep. Just one of those old school New York spots, you know? Perfect, perfect spot. So did that while we were, while I was, I fre and then I left I Fury and had of some downtime and was able to be there every day, which was I think, really important at the beginning.
[00:40:48]
Yeah. With not just the food, but like the staff and kind of just kind of constantly building boosting than we did at Campy. My
[00:40:55] Josh Sharkey:
My different partners or same partners,
[00:40:56] PJ Calapa:
different. Spanier was all us, and we invested, and then Scampi, I, I took, I, I got investors from outside. What was the impetus for, for that? For Scampi?
[00:41:08] PJ Calapa:
Yeah. Well, I knew it was either get another job or finally do it for yourself. And we had just done The Spaniard and I, it was going well. And I liked that idea. And so I raised some money and opened a restaurant. Which now in hindsight, you know, I mean, it was tricky. It was, it was a very interesting process, right?
[00:41:31]
We opened in 2017. I think rents were probably through the roof. We had a space across from Gramercy Tavern that fell through last minute because somebody else came in and paid more money. Somebody from TV. And then we found a space on 18 between 5th and 6th, which was a good space and a pretty good deal, but a tricky address, you know, open, open with, you know, a lot of good press.
[00:41:57]
But it was at that time where it was like the day they announced Scampi was opening Florence Fabricant was a big fan and she's like, PJ is finally doing his own thing was the day like Harvey Weinstein was on the cover or all the other stuff. And so it wasn't like, it wasn't a perfect time for what seems to be a big.
[00:42:15]
White guy opening an Italian restaurant. And it was around the time of like a lot of those same openings. So I think we got kind of, we got kind of ignored by, I never got reviewed. You know, I got reviewed how many times for other people, and then you finally do it yourself, and then the New York Times is like, that's tricky, you know?
[00:42:33] Josh Sharkey:
I mean, I ate there, I think, a few times, early on, and then, it was always awesome, the bomba, is that what it is? Yeah. That shit is, what is that, man? This is a crack.
[00:42:44] PJ Calapa:
Pickled shallots, pickled artichokes, pickled mushrooms. Tomato, Calabrian chili, and we blend it all together. Because I bought it, you buy it in a jar.
[00:42:55]
Yeah. And you buy it, and it's always, it was always too spicy. Mm hmm. And I wanted to make my version of it a little acrid too.
[00:43:01] PJ Calapa:
Right. I wanted to make my version of it, which we made in house. And it was more, like, more balanced and just a beautiful texture. And then we became something we were We use for so many different things.
[00:43:12] PJ Calapa:
I mean you should just jar that shit. We're starting, I'm starting a jar company. Yeah. Yeah. That stuff,
[00:43:17] Josh Sharkey:
I mean it's so good. I forget what you serve it with, but I just remember.
[00:43:20] PJ Calapa:
Well at the beginning you would get it on the table with, with the grissini. Yeah, that's right. With the house made breadsticks.
[00:43:24]
That's right. But then it was the, the idea for me was that I wanted a condiment on the table. If you're a whole meal. If you wanted to add a little more texture, or you wanted to add some heat, or you wanted to. And people would just be like, Can I get another one? Can I get another one? And you're like, Oh, there's something to this, you know.
[00:43:38] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, that stuff was good. And the, and the Malfaldini really good. What was it? Shrimp?
[00:43:44] PJ Calapa:
Shrimp. Scampi. Which we now do in Moraya, but with king crab. Oh, gotcha. The, the most interesting thing about me coming to Moraya now is that all that food that, I loved and came up with it scampi that maybe not everyone had tried or seen is translating very, very well into,
[00:44:01] Josh Sharkey:
Oh yeah.That makes a ton of sense. You
[00:44:02] PJ Calapa:
You know what I mean? This is like Southern Italian coastal seafood. Yeah, yeah. It's to do some minor tweaks here and there, but they're all dishes. I, that are, I created, you know, yeah.
[00:44:12] Josh Sharkey:
You said Big white guy, so if it's okay, you don't have to, but I mean, I mean, obviously when we met and knowing you for a while, like you were a larger guy.
[00:44:25] PJ Calapa:
I think when I worked at Bouley, I lost like 50 pounds working there.
[00:44:27] Josh Sharkey: Oh, wow.
[00:44:29] PJ Calapa:
It was like 140 degrees. Yeah, exactly. I mean, when they're like, how hot was the corner? And you're like, the thermometer melted to the wall. Yeah. Yeah, I lost weight and then I went back to school and gained weight and realized that it was like a terrible path.
[00:44:41]
I already had, you know, a wife or, you know, a girlfriend and we had children, but I knew there was like a change needed to happen and I was having a hard time sort of doing it myself, right? Like just kind of This whole idea of you're like, why are you, you know, it happens a lot for larger people. You're like, why, why, but I'm skinny.
[00:45:01]
Why can't you be? And it's like, you know, it's a different part of the brain. I did some research on, you know, gastric bypass versus sleeve or whatever. And I'm finally just bit the bullet February 12th, 2020, a month before pandemic had an hour long surgery. And I lost a hundred pounds. I lost a hundred pounds in the first a hundred days.
[00:45:21]
That's insane. It's insane. But it felt great. And I could, I mean, I could stand 15 hours a day as I was the big boy, you know what I mean? So then it became like, wow, it's so nice to be active and spend time with the kids and like not, you know, all those things like not be, you know, going up three flights of stairs is no big deal, you know? Yeah,
[00:45:42] Josh Sharkey:
I read somewhere, you said like through therapy you also like uncover like the root cause. But you didn't mention what, like, what, what do you think was the root cause of it?
[00:45:50] PJ Calapa:
Well, just, I mean, it's a lot of, sort of, you know, some unhappiness, right? Or some sort of depression. My parents got divorced when I was, like, nine.
[00:46:00]
And it was, like, everything was kind of perfect, and then all of a sudden it was, like, stop. And you realize that there's something there, and you, it just became, it became a drug. Yeah. It became a drug. Yeah. Where it was like you needed to fill it with something. Yeah. And, you know, I'd go out and have drinks with the guys, and then go home and put a whole sandwich, a huge sandwich, and it was just like, it was unhealthy.
[00:46:21] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah.
[00:46:22] PJ Calapa:
Consumption. Which was very, it was like sort of. Difficult for me to process because I make food for a living. Right? So I'm like, I'm going to make my stomach small and not be able to eat a lot, but I'm going to cook food for you. So it was like very tricky in that sense. And then I got to the point where like, Oh wow, I can eat all day.
[00:46:38] PJ Calapa:
I just can't eat a lot at the same time, which is honestly a much healthier way to eat. And now I really kind of. I'm very specific on what, now it makes me want to like write a book, like Perfect Bites. Cause you're like, if you only had room for one bite, what would it be? And then it'd be
[00:46:52] Josh Sharkey:
I think that's what a big part of the right way to eat is, yeah, just having the right kind of calories. And not just like. For sure. Nutritionally the right kind of calories, but like, hey, is that something that you really, you're going to enjoy? Definitely.
[00:47:03] PJ Calapa:
Definitely. And there's obviously going to be things that you don't need that are, you know, nobody needs to eat a bag of Doritos. It is. That doesn't mean that they're not good every once in a while. You know what I mean? Definitely. Definitely.
[00:47:12] Josh Sharkey:
We all have our thing, right? Everybody, the majority of people have like a thing that we do to manage stress. I remember, I mean, taking it for what it's worth, like, Louis CK is a very controversial dude. Yeah, yeah. He went back on stage after the thing happened.
[00:47:25]
Sure. And he's like, you know, everybody knows my thing. You know, we all have a thing. You all know what mine is. Right. We all have something. That like, that we do to manage stress. And it is tough when you like, you know, when you like, man, you Why couldn't my thing be this? Some people, by the way, have exercise. Like, fuck you. Oh yeah, I'm a runner. You're like,
[00:47:45] PJ Calapa:
I'm feeling stressed out right now, I'm gonna go run 10 miles. You're like,
[00:47:48] Josh Sharkey:
Wait, what? Oh my god. But, you know, and it usually, like, catalyzes, like, pretty early. We're like, that's the thing. Definitely.
[00:47:53] PJ Calapa:
And then, you know, I think therapy has helped through all of that. And I got very good at being able to speak about myself, and understanding the things that have happened to me in the past. Potentially not my fault. And then that, that point, just like, I'm going to tell everyone now, listen to Elsa's advice. Let it go.
[00:48:11] Josh Sharkey:
Clearly you have some daughters. I have a daughter. Yes. I think you're such a, you've been such an incredible like cook and chef for so long. So like, did it even like, what kind of impact did it have on other than like, The
[00:48:22] PJ Calapa:
Craziest part was that it, like, it was in the middle of the pandemic. I hadn't seen people in six months, and all of a sudden they're like, I remember sitting at a table in South Beachwood and Wine with people I knew very well, and they're like, hi, I'm so and so, and I'm like, PJ.
[00:48:35]
And they're like, shut the fuck up. Now it's just like such a joy to be able to like go for a long walk or to be like never have the knee pain or the back pain, like everything went away. I had the only unhealthy thing I had besides being heavy was I had like slightly high blood pressure. The moment I lost weight, it all went away.
[00:48:56]
Everything went away. And then you're like, all right, you're creating a longer life for yourself, a healthier life, a better example for my children, right? My daughter's eight now. She doesn't even remember, like, she sees pictures of me before and she's like, Whoa, who's that guy? Oh yeah. Cause you know, they probably at that age.Cause he's, I mean,
[00:49:14]
she's eight. She was four when it happened. Like that's half her life, you know, but it mostly for me is setting a better example for my children and just being able to kind of, and it makes obviously everything much easier.
Yeah.
[00:49:26] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. And I'm sure you're. Children also seeing that change and like, wow, daddy can really, huge, huge.
[00:49:32] PJ Calapa:
It made my relationship with my wife better and it made like everyone's happier. And we're, I mean, I have zero regrets. Yeah. One of the best things I ever did. Yeah. It's amazing, man. And, and four years in still hold it off where everyone is like, Oh, you could go back. I'm like, yeah. And that's the tough part. It's not going back.
[00:49:51] Josh Sharkey:
You know,
[00:49:51] PJ Calapa:
That's the tough part. You see a fluctuation here and there. This way, anyone, any human does now, but there's never that, like seeing the number Yeah. And being like, there's no way for me to fix this. Have you replaced the eating with something else? No, I mean, I feel like it's created such a happy place for me that it's, like, time with friends is so much better, I'm better at talking, I'm better at laughing, I'm better at, like, communicating.
[00:50:16]
I used to be, like, a very kind of introverted guy, and I was kind of shy, and now I'm like, I'm the chef at iFiori and Michelin stars, and I didn't want to go to the dining room, because I was like, ugh. And I'm like, Maria Dineroom, like, hey, hey, hey, how are you doing? Oh, I think understanding, like, what we've made and what we've done and being proud of it.
[00:50:35] Josh Sharkey:
So, how's it going to Maria?
[00:50:37] PJ Calapa:
It's great. We love it. When I finally decided we needed to close Scampi, which was obviously a very tricky and hard decision to make. It's like, you know, it's a child, essentially, you know. I kind of put myself out there and I looked at it like I'm, I'm a free agent, not a failure, right?
[00:50:53]
And I, Amas and I, the owner of Ultimary Group, we've always been very close. And I reached out and he's like, Hey, kind of Maria needs a little bit of help. And I had worked there one day ever, you know, I trailed there before I got the job at iFiori. And I went in and took a look and I was like, I think this is for me.
[00:51:14]
And I, and I think I had realized at the point where like everything matters, like location, location, location, there's not a better location for a restaurant. in New York City. And I already understood the cuisine and I knew kind of, I knew I wasn't having to build it from scratch and I knew I could come in and help.
[00:51:31]
And so I started May or June of last year and then for two weeks and then we closed for four months to do renovations, which was also part of the deal. What did you do during the four months? They just needed new floors and ceilings. What did you do? They had, uh, I just kind of bounced around the other restaurants.
[00:51:46]
I spent some time, went back to iFiori, which was very surreal. I'm like, I know this place. I met, If you were a last summer and it's like young cook doesn't really know me, there's still some of my dishes on the menu and I'm plating something and he goes, chef, that's not, you're not plating it right. I was like, uh, I invented this dish, but okay, you're in charge.
[00:52:11]
That's awesome. No, I spent some time like really like we, we recipe tested every single thing that had ever been on the menu to get it back to like, to the ground and to where we wanted it. And kind of prepared for a reopening. Yeah. And then reopened last October and it's been gangbusters ever since.
[00:52:29]
Yeah. May of Did you keep a lot of it on the menu? I kept the stuff that you can't take off. Like the octopus? You know, obviously fusilli and the lobster with burrata and a few pastas, a few things. But changed a lot, a lot in the best of ways. And, and, but always in the style of what that restaurant is. So then everyone now is like, Oh, now we really, people love that restaurant.
[00:52:53]
It has that kind of love the way that I felt like people had for Nobu, which there's not, I hadn't worked in a lot where people would walk in and they're like, ah, this is, this is what I want. And then you give them things that are new and fresh. It reminded me a lot of working on Makasi and Nobu. Like, there's obviously the staples, but then you're giving them things that are in that same style, but they love it, and then they really Yeah. Then they're becoming super, more loyal than
[00:53:16] Josh Sharkey:
They've ever been. Yeah. Is your R&D process any sort of, like, is there anything unique or novel about it, or like I like to be inspired
[00:53:24] PJ Calapa:
by, honestly, first visually, like I like to, I see it in my head before I cook it, which is, it can be, that can be very tricky because when you can't put it on the plate the way you've seen it, that can be frustrating, right?
[00:53:37]
Sometimes you put it on the plate even better than you've seen it and that can be really fulfilling. I've always been inspired by classics. I love spinning them on their heads. I love doing like multiple versions of the same thing. On the same plate, which is not, no reinvention. You know, everyone's been doing that.
[00:53:53]
How do you involve your team? Are they part of that? I let them, yeah. So I give them essentially like a guideline, right? I say, this is kind of what we're working on. I would love for you to do this. And there, it took me years for it to even let them do that. Like, it would be like, I would make it and then they would just copy it.
[00:54:08]
And then I realized like, for these people to stick around, they've got to make it. Yeah. I let them make the dish. We tweak it together. Yeah. We make it better. I know how to make it better. Then they're proud that it's still their dish and it's better. And then they'll make sure that it's always the same because they had such an impact on the first iteration of the dish.
[00:54:27] Josh Sharkey:
So better, right? How do you measure that? Like Seasoning at times.
Is there customer feedback as part of this or is it all like
[00:54:35] PJ Calapa:
basically, however you know, at that point, I mean, I'm, you know, I was looking at the runner show today and it was like, by the time it's hit the menu, there's no changes. Yeah.
[00:54:45]
And if it's had to be worked 10 times over, then it probably never needed to be on the menu, you know what I mean?
[00:54:50]
So it's like, we get it right away. I mean, I think there's like two or three iterations and then all of a sudden you're like, Every once in a while, there'll be a dish where you like, you've seen it for the 50th time and you're like, all right, it doesn't need this or, or it could use this, but most of the time it's, we get better and better at making the same thing and you, and it makes me like, it gives me such joy to watch those dishes come up on the past and be like, yeah, it's nice, you know?
[00:55:16] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, I always feel it's, you know, some things. Working when you're removing things from it.
[00:55:21] PJ Calapa:
Surely, surely. And I think that like all the years at Nobu and the years at working Italian, like those are two cuisines that it's like less is more it's the quality of ingredients, putting things together that should go together.
[00:55:34]
Don't overthink it. Don't put things on the plate to just, just to put it. And I, and, and back to what we were like, the whole idea of potentially, you know, Being aggressive to staff because you were, at one point, that was the same with the meeting point, right? Yeah. The amount of dishes that were hard just to be hard. Yeah. Not because it was, tastes better.
[00:55:53]
But just to be hard, and I was a firm believer of like, fuck that. Yeah. Why? Why? It's gonna taste delicious, but I'm not gonna make it hard on you. Because I'm like, yeah, you know what I mean?
[00:56:02] Josh Sharkey:
Well, what's like the dish you're most proud of? Oh,
By the way, overall, like all these places, all of them.
[00:56:08] PJ Calapa:
I don't think I can pick one. There's a lot. I mean, just pick one. The first comes to mind like the Bronzino tartar right now. Is another, like you're talking about the Bulma before we make our own Calabrian crunch, essentially like chili crunch that everyone, you know, sorry, David Chang. But we, I have this combo of like perfectly diced Bronzino with the Calabrian crunch, toasted pistachios, and like a lot of pistachios where you're getting that balance.
[00:56:36]
You still can taste the fish. It's pretty, it's tasty. We had a couple of the other in the restaurant the other night when they had come in for dinner, they had that. And then they left, they went to a show, and they came back, and they met them on the way back at the bar at Marea, and they're like, we had to come back, and I was like, oh, for dessert, and they're like, no, for that Bronzino, like, and we had it four hours ago, but we needed, we needed it one more time, and I was like, ah, what a feeling, right?
[00:57:02]
Yeah, it's amazing. I mean, that's an amazing feeling for someone to, and that's the dish where like, I'll have friends come in. And they'll have it, they've had it 50 times, and they're like, I'll never get tired of it. It's like the yellow hotel jalapeno, right? It's those dishes, you create something that you know is timeless, essentially. How could you not be proud of it, right? Yeah, yeah,
[00:57:22] Josh Sharkey:
That's what it's all about. Yeah. You know, I don't ask this often, but I just, I don't ever get to go out anymore. Uh, I live in Westchester. And uh, I get to say like once a week. My wife and I usually go out to eat. Yeah, in Westchester. What's like the most underappreciated restaurant or couple of restaurants in the city?
[00:57:41] PJ Calapa:
I mean I'll be honest with you in the same like I live in the burbs and have two kids and don't get out much, you know? It's not so much about underrated restaurant, maybe underrated chefs, right? Like, I love seeing Harold Dieterle back in the game, and I've heard, I haven't been to his new restaurant yet, but everything he ever did before, I really loved.
[00:57:58]
Yeah. And I feel like he potentially didn't ever get the right process. Another Harold, Harold Moore, right? Another great cook. And potentially never got, maybe had the wrong partners, or maybe never got There was definitely nothing wrong with what he was cooking, you know, and I felt that I mean, I kind of felt that when we opened Scampi.
[00:58:17]
And so now I'm like, give these guys opportunities in the right places. I think we have an opportunity now to like, create a better approach for these restaurants, you know?
[00:58:29] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. Any other chefs or like contemporaries that like you look up to? I mean, Marcus Glocker.
[00:58:36] PJ Calapa:
I've always loved, obviously. I love Marcus. James. He's great. But James and I were very close, and in that same sort of, those are our contemporaries, right? Marcus, James, the Heralds, the guy at JP, Atta Boy and Atta Mix. I mean, talk about spinning Korean on his head in the best of ways. Perfect timing for that. Loved all that. Have you been
Evan's spot in San Francisco?
[00:58:58]
I never have. It's really good. I know, I've heard, and I've sent so many friends there. I've never been to San Francisco. What? I know. We should have done this show in 10 minutes. Let's go, man. Sure. What kind of travel budget you got? I mean, there is some really good food. I know. I know. And my best friend growing up used to live there for a while.
[00:59:15]
He lives in Austin now, but it just was never convenient and it was far. And if I had like a week off, I was going to go to Europe, not to San Francisco, you know what I mean? So I would go to France, I'd go to Italy, or go to Spain. Now we're opening in LA, so I've been going to West Coast a lot more. And I'll definitely have some free time to kind of just sneak up and check it out.
[00:59:35]
But yeah, Evan and Sarah, I mean, love everything they've done. They were very instrumental in like being sort of, they were kind Belay, which I needed at the time. Sarah, I met Texan, and Evan in New Jersey, and we were like the opposite, my wife's New Jersey. That's right. It was like, you know,
[00:59:53] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, it's funny, the first time I went to San Francisco was when, do you remember at Bouley when we put in the new Maltini stove? Yeah. We had a week off. Uh huh. So I ate it Per Se that, that night, or like that, like that Sunday night. Yeah. With Santos and, uh, and, uh, his, uh, Veronica and, and this friend of mine. And the next morning I flew to San Francisco for the first, I'd never been there before. You know, 8th to 5th floor of London and all that stuff. That was my first time there ever.
[01:00:16] PJ Calapa:
I mean, I want, yeah, Alice Waters. I want to just go kind of, I want that. I want like that old school, you know, those kind of places.
[01:00:25] Josh Sharkey:
You know what? I think I just didn't order right. I didn't, I didn't have like the most amazing one there. Or a Zuni. Yeah, we're at Zuni. At Zuni, but the chicken is what everyone talks about right now. Yeah, which is delicious. Yeah,
[01:00:37] PJ Calapa:
but like, come on. There's some really good spots there now though. L. A. too. L.A. has been amazing. We've been obviously been there a lot. We're opening there in a few months. Spent some time there. The Produce incredible with Mozart. I mean, Nancy's been super sweet to us knowing that we're coming to town and like, been very inviting and welcoming.
[01:00:56]
And so you going to have to spend more time in Illinois? Yeah. Yeah. I'll be a chef of that one too. How's that going to work? Take the kids with you? Yeah, they'll come out. Yeah. I mean, not, not for the whole time. And like, I'll go, if I'm not coming home, my wife will come visit or she'll bring the kids out.
[01:01:13]
I think it's, it gives us another bit of a. You know, airplanes and airplane, right? And I live, we live in short Hills. Like I'm, I'm 10 minutes from Newark. Yeah. A commute to Manhattan is might as well be the commute to LA. You know what I mean? And obviously it's a little bit longer, but I'm excited for what it can be.
[01:01:29]
I think Beverly Hills in LA is kind of ready for like a fine dining Italian spot. That's a little bit different than what they're used to. Yeah. It'll be, I'm, I'm in just so excited for new seafood, new produce, like. That part, we've kind of always just, we've, we love it in the summer here, but all the other months of the year, we're getting everything from other, somewhere else, you know?
[01:01:51]
you're gonna have it year round? Yeah, exactly. I'm talking to my, my pastry chef, and she's like, chef, what about this, this, and this? And I was like, how about, like, A bowl of stone fruit with like a perfect custard and like, that's it. And she's like, wow, that sounds perfect. And I'm like, that is perfect.
[01:02:08]
Yeah. And you're like, and you eat the peach and you're like, wow, this is the most delicious thing I've ever eaten in my life. You're like. Yeah. Just let it be.
[01:02:15] Josh Sharkey:
What do you think is the next, like, you know, I don't know if you think about this, but the next five years or so of your, of your career,
[01:02:20] PJ Calapa:
I think now, I mean, um, you know, cooking in New York for 20, this is my 20th anniversary of cooking in New York city. Maria has been great to me and I feel like it's a brand that I can really kind of move forward with. I don't think I need much more growth past that other than. Being outside of the kitchen, I really, I kind of want to do this more like talking and, and getting people to talk about what our industry has been like and like kind of, you know, it's, it's another form of therapy, if you really, if you will, and some sort of entertainment.
[01:02:49]
I'm the 12 people that will listen to this will be, will love us. But I think giving us a platform, you know, a few side games, like I said, we were starting a little spice brand and we're doing like things from other angles, I think we're in a very good place for chefs, like with the bear and all of these things, you know, I think we're getting some sort of a good amount of attention in a good way, not the, you know, we've paid for our.
[01:03:18]
Past sins, you know, the, the third floor of spotted pig and all of these things that were like, not us, but we kind of got blamed for it. And now I think we have an opportunity to be like, look, we are the sort of leaders of this industry and like, food's not going away and people are more appreciative of really nice things than they ever have been.
[01:03:36]
So we just need to be kind of the ambassadors for really good food and like, and have people having a good time.
[01:03:43] Josh Sharkey:
You know, it's an experience. It's pretty incredible how, how the industry has. It's obviously a lot of, a lot of things that have improved just the amount of talent and then how that amount of talent has translated to the options of good things.
[01:04:00] PJ Calapa:
Truly. I mean, just the industries that have been created around that talent and like, and man, so you don't want to be stuck in a hot kitchen all night. It doesn't mean you can't be a chef or you can't be in this industry. And like, It's amazing to see and I, and honestly, I, it's not going anywhere and people love nice things and they're willing to pay for
[01:04:19] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, so let's end on this and this is a little bit like, I know it sounds whatever, but let's zoom back to PJ. He just started at Bouley, whatever is the new Bouley, what do you want to tell him, which means what you're going to tell all these cooks starting today, that like you wish you knew, or that might be something that's not so obvious.
[01:04:44] PJ Calapa:
I think it was like, I took that experience the way I kind of potentially had squandered my first attempt at college, right, where I was like, if I just knew that discipline mattered. Then everything would be so easy. And the first couple of days or first week or so, I was like, God, this is hard.
[01:05:01]
And I'm, and to just be like, dig deep and understand that like, hard is not going away, so why does we'll do something that you love. And once you understand that. Then the work doesn't feel like work, you know?
[01:05:16] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, if you can learn to embrace the chaos and look at it like this is the norm, not the edge case.
[01:05:23] PJ Calapa:
When crazy things happen. It's never an extreme, and it's never, uh, you don't have to make an excuse for why it didn't work or not, it just is part of, Yeah. Normalcy, right? Like, if you, that's, that's every day of our lives, right? It's like, if walking was hard, then you'd, you'd dwell on walking, right? But if you don't even think about, twice about walking, then you just walk.
[01:05:43]
You know what I mean? Yeah. That, that sounds so simple, but. It is. If we can create that for other things, then.
[01:05:47] Josh Sharkey:
I know we were going to end on that, but now I got to talk to you about this because you have two kids. Mm hmm. And I think about this a lot now because how we parent our kids is so different from how we were parented.
[01:05:59]
For sure. Right? And like. You know, in so many positive ways, you know, considering their emotions and like talking through those things, very much talking them out and things like that. There's an amount of friction and suffering might be the wrong word, but like struggle. Sure. Struggle. Struggle is the right word.
[01:06:13]
That like, that resilience is what is, helps you get better. A hundred percent. And also helps you to manage the next time it happens. A hundred percent. You know, and you can't
[01:06:23] PJ Calapa:
You need, A little bit of a shield or a barrier that at times is something you create yourself. But that means by actually falling, you fall so that you get up. Right. Yeah. You have to have that idea of like, yes, we were parent, we've been parented differently, but there was a phase where they were like not letting them fall. They were catching before they fall. And then you're like, if these kids never fall, then they never know how to get back up. Right. And I think we've come full circle.
[01:06:47]
I think our, our children that were sort of. Kids of however old we are, we'll get a taste of both, right? We, yes, yes, we know, we understand you have emotions and we're listening to you, but also fall. Yeah. And we'll pick you up. But like, get yourself up first and then I'm going to be there and talk it out with you and then you're going to learn to not fall next time.
[01:07:09] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. Yeah. Cause look, you're going to fall no matter what.
[01:07:11] PJ Calapa:
No matter what? If we try to protect that? Yeah. We're like.
[01:07:14] Josh Sharkey:
So, so when you fall when we're not around and you've never fallen before because we've always stopped. Right. We're the ones who've fallen. Right. Then you're You're fucked. Uh huh. You know?
[01:07:24]
Proper fucked. You know? So. Yeah. Anyways. That's good. This is a good way to end. Yeah. Perfect. Great man. Thank you.
[01:07:31] PJ Calapa:
My pleasure. Thank you for having me.
[01:07:33] Josh Sharkey:
That's it guys. Bye. Thanks for tuning into The meez Podcast. The music from the show is a remix of the song Art Mirror by an old friend, hip hop artist, Fresh Daily.
[01:07:44]
For show notes and more, visit getmeez.com/podcast. That's G E T M E E Z dot com forward slash podcast. If you enjoyed the show, I'd love it if you can share it with fellow entrepreneurs and culinary pros and give us a five star rating wherever you listen to your podcasts. Keep innovating.
[01:08:01] Josh Sharkey:
Don't settle. Make today a little bit better than yesterday. And remember, it's impossible for us to learn what we think we already know. See you next time.
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