[00:05:01]
I think it was like two years ago. Something like that, but we didn't see you. So unfortunately, but next time I go, I promise I will definitely be hitting you up and checking it out. Ironically, like this is like the week of Austin. I have my, some close friends of mine moved there a long time ago and opened up a restaurant called Lenoir.
[00:05:17]
Oh, cool. Jessica and Todd, we worked together at Bouley many years ago and they're coming on the show tomorrow, I think, or Friday or something like that. Oh, cool.
[00:05:26] Arjav Ezekiel:
We know Fiore really well, too.
[00:05:28] Josh Sharkey:
Oh yeah, Fiore was just on, and I actually, first of all, like, holy shit, what a story. Like, I, I knew Fiore from, like, meeting him, but I didn't know his background.
[00:05:37]
I don't know if you know about his background growing up, but man, that was a curveball. But there's a lot I didn't, I didn't ask him a lot about Austin that I'm gonna ask you guys about just to get some, some tips.
[00:05:50] Arjav Ezekiel:
He's a great friend of ours though.
[00:05:51] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. Okay. Anyways, you guys are busy. First of all, I'm like, so surprised we've never met before because of, you both worked in New York for a very long time.
[00:06:00] Josh Sharkey:
Tracy, you were a crew. Shay was there when you were there, right? And the Del Posto, Blue Hill, and with Mike at Gramercy. And then you both met at Untitled, right? That's right. Yeah. That's right. Were you, was that your first spot in New York? Our job? Yeah. It was. I was in
[00:06:16] Arjav Ezekiel:
D.C. before that. So I spent five years in D.C. I worked, my first restaurant job was at a Wolfgang Puck restaurant called The Source. Yep, there for a year and I spent four years at a restaurant called Comey where I feel like I learned as much as I could about hospitality, one of the great restaurants in the country, I think, and then moved up in 2015 to help open Untitled where I met Tracy.
[00:06:41]
And then I was at Gramercy Tavern for a little bit after.
[00:06:43] Josh Sharkey:
Oh, so you went to Gramercy after Untitled as well. Nice. You were born in India, right? And then came here.
[00:06:48] Arjav Ezekiel:
I was, yeah. I was born in India. I grew up in Portland, Oregon. We immigrated to the States in 1999. I was 12 years old. So I still have like very distinctive memories of India, but I moved to the States.
[00:07:01]
I call Portland home. Portland's like where I grew up and where all my friends are. My family, my parents still live there. I'm an Oregonian at heart. What, what brought them to Portland? Portland. I think my dad and mom were like two of the smartest, most creative people I know, but the Indian school system very much of that time was like rewarding people for STEM skills in particular.
[00:07:24]
And like, it was very clear to my brother that I didn't have, you know, the output for sort of math and science the same way, like some of our peers did. And I think mom and dad were ready to start a new adventure. And also, you know, give my brother and me a shot to do whatever we wanted to and be guest creative as we wanted to in our, in our lives and our field.
[00:07:45]
So it was really a choice made for like us and like what our futures would look like. So we ended up in Portland cause my dad's sister lives there too.
[00:07:54] Josh Sharkey:
Gotcha. So that's it. So you ended up there and you are from Texas, Tracy.
[00:07:59] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
Yes. I am from Houston.
[00:08:02] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. So Apparently you both sort of met, not met, but kindled your, the love that you have today over Negronis.
[00:08:11]
Did you, did you have a wedding by the way? Do we have a wedding? Yeah, we had two. You had two weddings? A lot to go somewhere. I married her twice. Were there Negronis at the wedding? Like, is Negroni still, like, a big part of your work?
[00:08:23] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
Definitely, yeah.
[00:08:24] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. So my wife and I used to go to Uncle Boone's, Rest in Peace, one of the best restaurants ever, and their zombie sling was, like, unreal.
[00:08:32]
So we made, like, I got the recipe for their, like, we made That at our wedding, which by the way, is a terrible idea to have at a wedding. Cause everyone was plastered. Yeah, it was zombie slings, and Boulevard. Everybody was hammered. But when did you get married? We got married in 2017. We got married in 2018.
[00:08:51]
So, you know, my assistant sent me a bunch of, of background on you all. And I think we, we have similar sort of trajectories, although I think I'm a lot older than you, but out of deductive reasoning, I think maybe we're similar. Yeah. An age because 82 I think was when you were born, right? So
[00:09:07] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
So great rollo year, by the way,
[00:09:08] Josh Sharkey:
It is early year for my second job in New York. I was working at tabla and I work for free in the mornings that, uh, Mario's like Selmer area. He had this thing in Union Square, you know, they didn't pay me for like six months, but on my birthday, they gave me a bottle of 1981 Quintarelli Giuseppe because well, basically take whatever you want of your birth year.
[00:09:27]
That's my birth year, 81. And so I had that bottle. Ironically, Like, I held on to it for a long time, and then I developed an allergy to live yeast. And for like 15 years, I couldn't drink wine, or beer, or sake, so only recently have I been able to. Did you ever drink that bottle? Yeah, I did. Fucking awesome.
[00:09:45]
But uh, I got a little sick. But, you know, whatever. It was worth it. Alright, so I still have a little more background because I want to just like learn a little bit more about you guys. How you got to where you are. And Tracy, you were in Chicago for a while and I have to ask, why did you apply at Hot Dogs?
[00:10:01] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
So I guess a little background. So I was graduated from college and in Houston. From the University of Houston for hotel restaurant management, and then I kind of shifted my focus from wanting to be, you know, restaurant manager with aspirations of having my own place to, I want to try to cook and do my own thing.
[00:10:20]
And so I wanted to learn about, you know, hot dogs and sausage making and I really just. Thought it was delicious. I had a good friend there and I would visit Chicago and I always loved hot dogs and there was like an energy with the space. And I was like, cool. I would love to have a, you know, neighborhood place like this.
[00:10:35]
That's very energetic and lively and delicious. So I applied to work there with the intentions of maybe I'll do a hot. Dog shop in Houston. And then he looked at me, he was like, you want to work at the kitchen here? And he like, it was kind of like, what experience do you have in the kitchen? And I said, none, but happy to learn, you know?
[00:10:53]
And he was like, I guess you could maybe be a busser. And then I was like, you know. I want to try this cooking thing. I think I'm gonna look somewhere else because they just didn't have any slots in the, it was like a two person. So I ended up working at Lula Cafe after six months of begging and I started off at the bottom as a prep cook and they were incredible, taught me how to hold a knife, taught me how to set up a station.
[00:11:16]
It really just kind of set the tone for the kind of restaurant we wanted to have.
[00:11:21] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, that's an institution out there. I was just, when I heard hot dogs, that's, that's a departure. That's interesting. I owned a bunch of hot dog restaurants in New York back in the day. In Brooklyn and Manhattan, it was called Bark Hot Dogs.
[00:11:31] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:11:33] Josh Sharkey:
We spent a lot of time in a lot of hot dog joints, hot dogs being one of them. Rest in peace as well, by the way. Rest in peace, man. Closed. Well, Untitled closed as well. And, you know, I have friends that worked, you know, in that and the MoMA spot. What's it like running a restaurant in a museum?
[00:11:51]
Does that suck? What is it like running a restaurant in a museum?
[00:11:53] Arjav Ezekiel:
Yes, it does suck. Uh, short answer.
[00:11:57] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
You know, I think Untitled at the Whitney was, we learned a ton about, that was my first restaurant to open, period. So, I was really excited to open a restaurant with Mike Anthony. And two, it was two restaurants in one space.
[00:12:09]
Three, we had Untitled on the ground floor and the Studio Cafe on the eighth floor, which was like serving toasts and salads and soups. But just to get your mise en place
[00:12:18]
up to the eighth floor, you had to use the elevator shared with the guests. And if you remember, the Whitney was like the biggest museum opening of the year.
[00:12:28]
If there was a line down the street in the meat packing district, just full of tourists from around the world. And so it was just sheer chaos trying to get up like mise en place, like, you know, your little tray you'd be open, but you couldn't get up the eight quart of soup or whatever you needed up the elevator because you literally just couldn't get there.
[00:12:46]
And so there were so many like nuanced challenges. about that opening, but it was a fantastic crew and we had a lot of fun.
[00:12:58]
We had a big prep kitchen on the bottom floor, that huge space, so we did a lot of prep for Untitled because that was a pretty tight space. Long line and there's a little space on the upstairs kitchen on the eighth floor But the big amount of prep was done on the negative one floor.
[00:13:13] Josh Sharkey:
It's so funny because you know, you work that's a big kitchen and Gramercy is you know Like a maze of all kinds of you know You got a there's a whole bunch of different kitchens, you know pastry in one area Like it's it's pretty big and the spots in D.C. that you worked ever pretty big and that and then you you you open up a pretty what seems like again, I haven't been there, but it seems like a I'm guessing a pretty tiny kitchen at Birdie’s, right?
[00:13:36] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
Yeah, it's small. It's funny because thinking about kind of my past 19 years of from when I started cooking to now, as I've been kind of reflective lately, starting off in a little small neighborhood restaurant like Lula, it actually feels a lot more like Lula than all of the fine dining restaurants. I worked out in New York and I kind of like that.
[00:13:55]
I like being able to cook and, Oh, I'm going to grab this. And I'm going to grab that. Whereas like, I also worked at Del Posto. And if you forgot something downstairs, it was like literally five minutes off your prep day. You had to go all the way downstairs, all the way around the corner, all the way back.
[00:14:09]
And it just literally took five minutes. So. Five minutes. You know, when you have three hours to prep is a chunk of time. And so you had to like really have your act together. And I don't know, not to say I don't like to be organized, but I like having everything just, you know, an arm grab away.
[00:14:23] Arjav Ezekiel:
Yeah. I mean, it's still hard. It's interesting to me. Cause I feel like it's funny to hear Tracy say that about Lula. Cause We think the hospitality and the way service feels is the most like Comey and I think both of us like worked at these bigger restaurants in New York, but like the thing that has always kind of grounded us is like the first restaurants we ever worked at like, I think both of us got really lucky to work for really incredible people, like honestly, our whole career, but like, yeah, We got really lucky with the first place we ever started, because I think it set a foundation for what to expect both out of ourselves in this industry, and also what to expect out of like a great workplace.
[00:15:05]
And I think both those things have really stuck with me. Uh, you know, for, for me on the hospitality side, I think Comey was the greatest place I'd ever seen, like, as far as like restaurant hospitality had gone. And I was like, I learned so much of that restaurant about how to be myself, how to like carry myself on the floor.
[00:15:27]
And we, a lot of the lessons, you know, I learned, I now teach our staff. But even things like vacations that we go on when we close the restaurant, that was like a Comey thing.
[00:15:37]
Like I never, like, you know, I, after Comey, I never experienced that again. Where like the restaurant would just shut down for a summer vacation every year, you know, and let people go recharge.
[00:15:47]
And I think, I remember those days, Of my career and my life so fondly in large part because of how much I loved my work. And it was the only time I'd ever like cried when I left like a job. 'cause I was so sad. So I cried too when I left Lula. When we left Lula. And I think so much that tells you a lot about the kind of places that made an impact on us and a little bit maybe about like the kind of people we are and the things that we gravitate to in restaurants.
[00:16:12]
You know, we're not like, I think we learned a lot working for like the big people and like learn systems and learn how to like organize yourself and how to build protocols and like be great managers, but I think, and leaders, but I think the, the heartbeat of our restaurant will always be informed by Comey and Lula. Yeah.
[00:16:30] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. You know, it's funny. It reminds me, I have a friend of mine has this restaurant called Tippling House in Charleston. Oh yeah. You know Matthew? Oh yeah. We worked together years ago at Cafe Gray. Yeah. you know, he was talking about they work five days and, and, you know, they close at midnight. And I'm curious, I actually wanted to ask you all, because let's wind up a little bit for people that might not know, like the, the structure of Birdie’s.
[00:16:50]
Again, I haven't been there, but I, now I know a little bit more about how the service works, the counter service, you walk up, so obviously a lot less, you know, service staff, but you guys did a lot. Upfront to take care of the team, right? Paid time off, vacations, you know, health insurance, that kind of stuff.
[00:17:04]
I feel like if you don't do it from the outset, it's like almost impossible to go back and change and do it right. Like, could you imagine going to like a restaurant, running a restaurant and then changing from like, okay, I know everybody was working this way, but now it's going to be, you know, completely different and you're going to have paid out, you'd have to completely change the.
[00:17:24]
The way in which you operate. Do you feel like there are things that you, that you didn't do when you opened that now you wish you had, maybe struggling with because you didn't do that when you opened? Like you, you got so many things right, you know, like health insurance, pay time off, like making sure your team is, you know, a tight, small group that you can take care of.
[00:17:44]
And I want to definitely talk about that, but Are there things that, like, that, you know, it's been, when did it open? Two thousand Twenty one. Twenty one, yeah. So, you know, it's been a few years now. Like, are there things that, like, fast forward, you're like, Man, I wish I had started this right away.
[00:17:58] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
Honestly, we had so much time to think about what Birdie’s was going to be. Our job and I met in 2016 and you know, we've been brainstorming on this for a long time and we also hit the pandemic and we had even more time to think we actually signed our lease for Birdie’s three weeks before the pandemic drop in that February because I feel like in March everything kind of stopped.
[00:18:20]
So we just had a lot of time, time to think we were furloughed from our jobs that we had kind of in the interim so we could pay the bills. And while we had that time off, we just had a lot of time to chat and think and, you know, We've worked in restaurants collectively many years and we've seen a lot of great things.
[00:18:37]
We've seen a lot of things that we weren't feeling and we didn't want to include in our restaurant. So we just kind of sculpted what we wanted. You know, we kind of like made this Venn diagram of all our values and like everything we could dream of. And we just kind of figured out a way. How do we make all the things that we really want in a restaurant?
[00:18:54]
How do we actually implement that logistically? And then counter service happened. You know, we're able to tip out our cooks and dishwashers and that everyone can make a living wage, not just some people on our team. And, you know, we don't, we don't want to work on setting on these personally. It's always my favorite split schedule.
[00:19:09]
And I felt like I was a line cook for many years. And I was like, okay, I know the schedule I want, and I'm guessing that's I also don't want to be bothered on Sundays. You know, I don't have to come in if that's my day off and like cover or whatever. Like, I just want to chill on Sunday and Monday. I know our team is chilling too and can plan that time to be with their family or just do whatever they want to do on the same days every week.
[00:19:31]
I also hate making the schedule. I just, I don't like it. So it kind of makes it like, even it makes it clean. Our entire philosophy was like, create the restaurant. We've dreamt of our entire lives. And then also how do we keep it as simple as possible? Cause we're both not complicated people. And we just wanted to be straightforward as possible.
[00:19:50] Arjav Ezekiel:
I think, I think when we, when we really like started digging through, like some of this, like we really went back to first principles on a lot of just like the best structure of a restaurant, right? Like in business model of a restaurant. And we said like. You know, restaurants really haven't changed since antiquity, like the structure of restaurants haven't really changed since antiquity.
[00:20:08]
And I think for us, it was a matter of like knowing the math of what like labor looks like today and like what real estate looks like today, what does a restaurant have to look like to be functional, both for owners and the team? Right. And I think a lot of. Our thinking was like, this has to be like a happy thing for us.
[00:20:29]
We've talked to so many restaurant owners. We're like, don't do it. Don't do it. Worst idea ever. We're like, why, why do people give their whole life to something and then say like, Oh, you're going to end up being, you know, like the, the famous, like the joke is like, how do you end up a millionaire? Like, you know, as a restauranteur, you start with 2 million and you hit a million.
[00:20:49]
Like I never bought into that. And I think for us, it was like, there has to be a way. We just need to be bold enough to like, maybe borrow things that already exist and create our own restaurant, you know? So it was like, okay, does QSR have some like things that win? Yeah. Like the service model is interesting.
[00:21:09]
You know, there's food trailers that like, get away with this, like who made the rule that we can do like a fine dining style restaurant with the same kind of caliber of food and even the hospitality, but maybe strip away some parts of the service. And I think one thing we learned after the pandemic, even for our own dining habits is we'd liked having a little more space when we ate, like we liked being able to hang out just the two of us without having to like, you know, Be interrupted every time a server showed out.
[00:21:37]
And I think the most important and the least favorite part of my like meals, most times it's like, when I'm ready to leave, I'm ready to leave, especially now that I have a kid, like, I just want to get out, you know, and I think not having to flag somebody down for a check, whatever, that was an incredible gift for us when we ate out of these counter service restaurants.
[00:21:54]
We're like, Oh, you just get up and leave when you're done. It's great. And I think we put those pieces together and just like, you know, we created something that was like, I think singularly and uniquely. Like ours, it's very Birdie’s. Like, I don't know, like, I don't, you know, there's no real analog for the, what we'll do, I don't think.
[00:22:11] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
Well, I think to pinpoint that, sorry, I know really quick, but like, there were like a lot of, there were daytime places, you don't doing this, like, you know, like you love like squirrel and destroyer, how you can have fantastic food, but like for lunch and grab your ticket, sit down. Oh, wow. That's. Really incredible.
[00:22:26]
I loved it. And then you can go, you know, do that at dinner is kind of like with wine with a long line was, yeah,
[00:22:33] Arjav Ezekiel:
But I don't think like those restaurants, like those are to me, true counter service restaurants. Like, I think the difference for me is like, I think in Birdie’s, like there is service after you sit down.
[00:22:43]
So like, once you sit down, You're not like bussing your own, like, you know, like you're not bussing your own plates. You're not like getting yourself your own water. Like there's a full kind of suite of service that you get that we are, we've paid attention to the things that we really like when we go out.
[00:22:59]
Like we want somebody to bring us water. We want people to show us how to use the restaurant, right? Like we want to feel connected to one person, at least when we sit down. I think that's really important when you eat at a restaurant, especially when you're paying a higher price point, right? So I think we want wine service to be like wine service, right?
[00:23:19]
We just, the part that we removed is we didn't want the layers. So we didn't want a captain. We didn't want back waiters. We didn't want front waiters. We didn't want all these layers or even in a flat restaurant with just waiters. We didn't want eight people on the floor plus three food runners. You know, it just like, it didn't make sense.
[00:23:37]
No, it's so, it's so smart. Yeah. Yeah. And like knowing what the labor market was bearing with like the kind of talent to, we knew that like for a restaurant like ours, it was small and scrappy. We weren't going to get like. The top end talent. So we made it like in the dining room. So we made a decision to say let's hire people with almost no experience.
[00:23:57]
And like, let's believe in our own like training program and our ourselves to train them up in a way that makes sense for our restaurant. And we've like. I think we've cultivated this like incredible suite of like true stars in the dining room who understand the most important principle of hospitality, which is just hospitality, you know, like, is our service always technically perfect?
[00:24:18]
Probably not. We're okay with that. I don't think that makes an impact on like truly on a person's like day. But I think the way we approach hospitality, like the way we're able to like Cultivate like an experience, then like one size fits one for each guest. I think that's special and unique. And I think that's what brings people back in the restaurant.
[00:24:39] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. Right. I think that's the most. Yeah, it's interesting. The counter service model when it's just counter service, like squirrel or like whatever going to shake shack, you know, you, you go up and then you're kind of done. And I love that you have sort of thought about like what is a creative to the experience versus everything else that isn't just.
[00:24:58]
Strip it away, which by the way, means less team. I'm assuming everyone's getting tipped, right? Even the cooks, because they can, they can walk out. It's so awesome.
[00:25:07] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
Cooks and dishwashers.
[00:25:08] Josh Sharkey:
Dishwashers. I mean, it's, it's killer. And I mean, clearly this model works because from what I understand, you paid back your investors within like nine months, which by the way, like.
[00:25:16]
Fuck you. Like, who does that? That's amazing.
[00:25:19] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
You can't get the fancy plates, Josh.
[00:25:22] Arjav Ezekiel:
We bought scrappy. Our startup cost was really low. We raised only $300,000 to open Birdie’s. But we did that knowing that we could add. Like, I think we've invested far more than that. No, it's so smart. We doubled that, more into the restaurant since we opened.
[00:25:40]
But we knew we could add. Like, we didn't wanna have such heavy startup costs, like at the start, not knowing if we were gonna be around in a year. So we were like, let's start really scrapping. We bought all our plates from Crate and Barrel, they all shipped. They were gnarly. If you look at our first like, you know, six months of Instagram photos, they all on like shipped plates. 'Cause they weren't built for commercial, but we paid 2 99 a plate.
[00:26:01] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
I was like, grandma style, we can make it work right now. Yeah. And also
[00:26:04] Josh Sharkey:
Like, you know, get the revenue and get the people in and then you can, you can upgrade. Totally. Yeah. You know, you know something Arjav, you said, I don't know where you said it.
[00:26:11]
But I got a note about it that I thought was really smart that I think about a lot is, you know, people complain that there's not enough labor. I mean, look, it is tough getting labor and retention can be a problem, but most of the time, restaurants are creating jobs, not careers. You know, they're this transient thing where, like, it's very clear that you're starting here so that someday you're going to go do something else.
[00:26:35]
And clearly, there's not enough labor. If there isn't health insurance, there aren't, like, ways for you to, you know, have a, have a life, then this is not the end for you, and, you know, you're gonna have to, at some point, do something else, and feels like, and from what you said, it sounds like you're creating, you know, careers for people, so that it might be a little bit more up for the cause.
[00:26:53] Arjav Ezekiel:
We're attempting to. I, like, no, I don't wanna, like, there's a lot of restaurants that are doing, like, really important stuff around this, this, like, idea of building careers. Um, I think for us, like Tracy and I have such a deep, like deep, deep, deep respect for this industry and for like the greats that have come before us, that I think we are like, you know, we just want our legacy to be like, but we left this industry just a little bit better than we found it.
[00:27:20]
And I think, you know, for us, like that was very much predicated on this idea of. Making this a sustainable career so that like this, this industry that we care so deeply about can function profitably, happily, you know, for the next generation. I think that's really important. And I think about like a lot about how these restaurants, like all our restaurants are filled with these like young, impressionable, Quite frankly, right?
[00:27:48]
Like there are people who are like working restaurants or like in their twenties, early twenties, early thirties, for the most part, like they're learning about life and about this industry. And I think it's so important to like create a foundation that people can believe that, Hey, you know what? Like I can be a restaurant general manager Sunday.
[00:28:04]
I can be an owner someday. I can be an executive Sous or CDC someday. Now, is everyone going to be able to do that? But I think if you can create the parameters where people don't feel like they have to compromise their life. To fulfill their career, then you're so much more likely to get like people who stick around a while, right?
[00:28:24]
Like I think by family leave, that is such an intrinsic part. Like we had a kid, like if we had had a kid, like at a restaurant, both of us working in restaurants without family leave, like Tracy would probably have had to take, like quit her job, you know, and I would have probably had to quit my job and then find another job six months.
[00:28:42]
Right. And like. That is not a sustainable way to build a career. And like, honestly, it's not like it shouldn't be the responsibility of restaurants, the government should be helping with this stuff, but at the end of the day, like if government's not going to help with stuff, when you start building business models that allow us to build the tools that we need to, like as a business to keep people longer, because we're like, I think the thing that we forget about is that we're investing in people all the time.
[00:29:08]
Like. This is like enlightened self interest, like this is not just like me and Tracy trying to be great like people like we're trying to do that, but like, this is really. Like a good for our business too. Like we're putting a lot of time and energy into training these people, cultivating them. Like, we want them to stick around as long as possible, especially when you find like a star, you know, and you're like, Oh, you're going to be like, you have the potential to be the general manager or a restaurant or a partner someday.
[00:29:33]
Like if you see that in somebody early on, like it's our goal to like invest in those people, but also like tell them that this is possible. Like your goals are possible. You just have to have the right, like time horizon. But if you like want to do what you want to do, like The right time horizon. We're ready and always willing to talk about it,
[00:29:50] Josh Sharkey:
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[00:31:02]
It's tough. You know, I remember, like, by the way, I missed you all at the Philly Chef Conference. I think I left the day you were there. But last year at the L.A. Chef Conference, the founders of, you know, Regarding Her, the organization, it's really cool organization I think I'll send in the notes. But um, there's a panel about, um, Having a family and being in the restaurant and this girl in the audience was a culinary student asking and she had a job And she asked the advice of you know, the people in the panel I think it was like, you know, Beverly Kim and Catherine Miller and a bunch of you know, anyways, she's like What should I do like now?
[00:31:36]
I'm about to have a kid. What's your advice of how do I you know? How do I keep my job or what should I do? And it was like radio sounds They're like, I don't really have enough You An option for you. I don't, I don't know, you know, because, you know, think about if you're a line cook and you're about to have a kid, what do you do?
[00:31:54]
There's not, there's not a lot of options. And so I think, you know, what you all are doing, I mean, I appreciate that you say, look, you're just, you're a small part of it, but like, that's what it takes, you know, to start this thing and show that it's possible. And there's still, I'm sure a lot more that you all, you know, are going to work on trying to do.
[00:32:12]
It's not easy. But, you know, even if it takes 10 years, like, it's the only way that the restaurant industry really survives in the way that we want it to, is if we figure out a way that people can actually live and also work in the restaurant, you know?
[00:32:26] Arjav Ezekiel:
Yeah. Can I just add one thing to that idea, though, which I think is really, like, an important thing and I think, like, I'm very open about is that, like, We have to also talk about like, how do we increase our margins as a business?
[00:32:37] Arjav Ezekiel:
Like as a restaurant, like as the industry, because I think like there are two things happening simultaneously, right? Like benefits cost money, but like restaurant margins are shrinking. So like those two things, when they happen in parallel, usually spell disaster, you know, and I think. It's much easier if you're a hyper well capitalized, like restaurant get off, like, like do these things where you're investing or like, and like, you know, if you have a huge restaurant group where you have like two restaurants that are profitable and five that are not, they all just kind of feed each other, like you can do those things.
[00:33:11]
But like, I think for us, like smaller operators, right. That like. Build businesses between one and 4 million a year. I think for businesses like that, I think it's really important to start thinking about margin and like the only way you can do these great things for your team without like thinking about it all the time is by increasing the margin.
[00:33:32]
Because like, if we have great margin, then you can do these things and you don't go, like, you're not worried about like, how do I keep the lights on?
[00:33:39] Josh Sharkey:
A hundred percent, man. I think. You know, I've been talking about this. We
[00:33:42] Arjav Ezekiel:
We don't talk about that enough.
[00:33:43] Josh Sharkey:
No. Well, I think a big problem is that, and by the way, it's not actually just relegated to single unit restaurants because problem scale, you know, and I mean, I've, I've, you know, had to run small restaurants, but also like large multi unit and that shit doesn't get cheaper.
[00:33:57]
I mean, sometimes it can when you have kind of a scale, but for the most part, the problem I think is that the perception of what things should cost, because when someone goes to Birdie's. If they are thinking this way, the thought is I'm paying for that pasta. Pasta costs like two dollars. So, you know, how much should this cost?
[00:34:15]
And I can go to the store and buy mushrooms and they cost this. And the, the problem is that you're not paying just for the food. You're paying for this whole experience. And you're paying for the design and the feel and the lights that are around you and the music that's on and the thought that went into, you That mushroom and the thought of like farmers were going to buy those things from and to store all the plates and the food.
[00:34:36] Josh Sharkey:
And, you know, you know, I made this analogy with Carolyn Glover was on a little bit ago from Colorado. And she's the best.
[00:34:44]
if you go to a spa, it's like 150 bucks. Just to go. That's without like a massage. You know, that's without like getting a massage done. It's just 150 to like enjoy the the room and the heating and the water and that's it.
[00:34:59]
And then it's more if you want to buy a shake or a smoothie or get a massage. Margins can't be what they are. Like, you know, prime cost at 60 percent is basically what the status quo has been. But to your point, like how do you innovate if you don't have, you know, margins greater than that? And I think Part of it has to be that the perception of what food should cost needs to change, you know what I mean?
[00:35:23] Arjav Ezekiel:
I mean like the most expensive thing on the birdies menu is like 36 dollars, you know And I think like I try to explain to people sometimes that like if we were a full service restaurant that same dish would be 48 Like I don't think people can like wrap their head around that I think that's like another benefit of counter service is like we're allowed You know, we can move the needle on like our margin if we need to by just moving things up or down a dollar, depending on like what like the month looks like.
[00:35:46]
But I do think like, I think you're totally right. I think, you know, Tracy has done a lot of great work, but like really innovate, like smart menu design, keeping it really small and craveable and changes all the time. So people like, even like our regulars, like we have more regulars because like Tracy will change the menu and like, We're like, Oh, let's go in, you know,
[00:36:05] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
and then they can see me, you know, testing out the dish for the first time and tasting it, like when the first one's fired and figuring it out.
[00:36:11]
And I think, you know, people love that energy and we have to 86 something. Cause either a, it's not right. Or B we're out of it. We 86 it, but we're not sitting on like a ton of fish. And, you know, we typically 86 our fish on Saturdays around eight, because we don't want to be, obviously we're not going to save that fish for Tuesday when we reopen.
[00:36:29]
So we do a lot of things that are just like keep it lean and mean and you know for us We've really kind of figured out what works for us. Yeah,
[00:36:37] Josh Sharkey:
I'm curious if the counter service has any impact on what people think The cost should be because I remember you know those for sure I mentioned that hot dog place Bark and I vividly remember like the first year we opened You know, we were making all our own sausages and making our own sauerkraut in these chardonnay barrels and I mean it was like, like really fucking good, you know.
[00:37:01]
And we would charge 8, you know, for a Pleasant Ridge cheddar stuffed sausage, you know, in a, on a bun with like homemade sauerkraut and it would be eight bucks and they would, you know, people complain 8 for a sausage. Oh my God, I can go down the street. And if that same thing was, you know, sliced. And, and the charcuterie was like in a little pile and it was at Baroo or something, it would be $32.
[00:37:25]
It always pissed me off. But I'm curious if, if that same like thing happens with you all because it's counter service, if people think that it should just cost less because of that too.
[00:37:34] Arjav Ezekiel:
I think it did. I think that's changed now. I think now the thing is like, why should I tip before I sit down? Like that's the thing that like I hear, I'm like, don't tip, don't they tip the counter?
[00:37:45]
Don't tip. Like be that guy. They do, but they're like, you know, they were like, why do I have to tip? Like, I don't know what service it's going to look like. Cause people still want to use it as a stick and a carrot. They say that. Yeah. And like, sometimes people are like, why do I have to tip? And I'm like, if you don't want to tip man, don't tip, you know?
[00:38:00]
And then like we, what we do is actually the opposite of what I'm like. My instincts are, which are like, I want to like say, screw you, like fuck off, like all those things. But like the truth is what we do is we double down. So we just crushing with so much hospitality that like, and we send them a couple of year gift along the way.
[00:38:17]
And like, it makes them feel like they end up. Those people end up tipping more because we approach it with like a, this is a challenge. Let's approach it like as a, an opportunity for us to prove to them why they're wrong, you know what I mean? And I think instead of just telling them they're wrong, what we started doing is like just showing them.
[00:38:37]
And I think like to us, like that has been for me, at least like this year, like for the first two years, I felt like we had to defend what we were doing. And like, why are we doing counter shifts? Like it was a lot of like talking about it. Why are we doing, why are we doing it? Why are we doing these, the benefits and for like, 10 percent of people are never going to get it.
[00:38:55]
10 percent of people are going to hate it. And that's okay. You know, I think as restaurant owners, like we have to all accept that, like Google reviews and Yelp are not the arbiter of like who you are. And I think like, I forget that sometimes, right? Like, but I think we have like 150, like, you know, 180, 200 reviews.
[00:39:13]
We've been over three years and like, you have a line outside. Like, why am I not focused on that?
[00:39:16] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. A hundred percent.
[00:39:18] Arjav Ezekiel:
You know, like, why am I focused by like these, like four people that are like, Didn't get it when I shouldn't be putting all my energy into the people who do, you know, and I think like reframing some of this stuff for myself, my small restaurant owners has been really helpful because we give a shit.
[00:39:32]
Like we really care, you know, like I think we really care about our food. Are we always perfect restaurant? Absolutely not. But I don't think as a team I've ever felt like we haven't carried and we haven't pushed.
[00:39:46]
We were talking about this yesterday. I was like, you know, for me, like the most important thing is like, We're pushing, we're always being ourselves.
[00:39:52]
We're always rowing. We're always trying to find like the best version of ourselves at the restaurant. And like, we push our team really hard. You know, I think like we expect a lot out of them, but like, it's really critical. I think for us as a, as an industry to like, make sure you expect a lot out of people, but then give them a lot, you know, give
[00:40:10]
them what they need to be successful at what they do and like, don't worry as much, I think you have to care about your guests when they're here.
[00:40:17]
But like, if guests don't get the concept or don't get the idea. Then it's like, that's okay. You know, if they're talking about, Hey, this steak is overcooked, undercooked, or like, they're talking about like actual issues, like you have to listen. But if they come into the restaurant and they're like, I waited an hour, like, I don't like this place and like.
[00:40:34]
You don't have to wait an hour, but yeah,
[00:40:38] Josh Sharkey:
It's usually a good sign of something that's really a net new good thing for the world is some amount of people should not like it because otherwise it's not, you know, it's not polarizing enough. I'm curious how you'll think about this just for, it's so funny with a restaurant.
[00:40:51]
It's so personal, you know, when you open a typical business, it hits you, right? So when you get like these reviews, whether they're good or they're bad, you associate it with yourself. You know, it's really hard to separate, like, I'm good versus my restaurant is good or I'm bad versus my restaurant is struggling.
[00:41:07]
Do you all ever talk about that or think about that just between yourselves?
[00:41:10] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
Yeah, so it's funny because our job is the one who will usually read the reviews and I've kind of made it a point I never read them. It just affects my mind space and when I like come up with a menu, I don't want to think about, Oh.
[00:41:25]
You know, Joe, who thinks that, you know, random crappy rest, not crappy restaurant, but like a chain restaurant is the best thing ever. A five star. And then we're a two star, like, is that the person I'm going to cook for and start changing? Like what I do, like, no, that's distracting. And so I think for me, it's more beneficial to put.
[00:41:46]
My blinders on and just kind of like, I just do what I do. Stay focused on what I'm focused on with our team, see what our farmers have. And I just kind of like to cook like that. And I know who I am as a chef. I know who our team is. I know who our job and I are as business owners. I know our mission, you know, I know our values at Birdie’s.
[00:42:06]
I think what we do is authentic and real. And ultimately, if someone doesn't like it, it's like, no problem, go to the restaurant, you know, and I just don't, I just block it out, you know, because the haters will drain your energy and you have so many other positive, amazing things to focus on in life. And you only have a certain amount of energy.
[00:42:28]
And so I just really believe you have to protect it because if you start letting your energy go away to negativity, that's just going to bring you down. It's going to drain you. You want to. Life is short and save your energy for the good stuff. But
[00:42:40] Arjav Ezekiel:
We also acknowledge, like, you know, we've had, like, we're very aware of the fact that, like, we've been incredibly lucky with some of the accolades we've gotten in a very short period of time since we opened.
[00:42:51]
We're aware of that, right? And I think, like, that obviously changes expectations, too, of, like, the kind of restaurant we are, etc. And I think, like, One thing that we've really worked hard on is like just reminding each other. Like the reason we've had the pleasure of having some of these things is because we are who we are.
[00:43:10]
I'm like, we're doing what we're doing. Like we can't suddenly change those things, you know? And I think we're, we're just like really aware of that. You know, it's like, we have to keep doing what we're doing and push the boundaries of what we're doing and like explore what else is possible with like counter service, taking care of our team.
[00:43:30]
You know, pushing margin both for the business so we can like invest in our like management team, especially like, how do we continue to like create this virtuous cycle that works for all of our stakeholders? And I think for us, like the, the big lesson has been like, you know, just keep innovating on the, like your core competencies, you know, like keep.
[00:43:50]
Like your head down and focus on what are you really great at? And then like keep expounding on that don't start chasing like the small little like distracting thing here and there just like focus on the things that like are really like you're great at and surround yourself with people who are better at the things that you're not good at
[00:44:05] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
And honestly, thankfully we just love what we do, you know, I love my cook and our job Love service, you know and I think it's easy to come back to do what we love to do and let go of the, you know, the nonsense talk.
[00:44:20]
Like if it's constructive, yes, happy to listen to. Always want to get better. And so I'm not saying we're not open to any feedback. It's just the stuff that's like negative, just to be negative. It isn't constructive. Like I don't have time for it.
[00:44:33] Arjav Ezekiel:
You're never as good as they say you are. You're never as bad.
[00:44:35] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, exactly. And what matters most is just, and it's clearly with you, with you all, obviously is that you just, just have to love what you do and you know, I've owned several businesses now and I've, one thing I've learned is I never get too excited about the good. Or too upset about the bad. And mostly that, that means like when something good happens, you know, acknowledge it, that's great, but I'm still the same person I was yesterday.
[00:44:58]
And because the same way, something bad's going to happen tomorrow, no matter what. And you know, if you're not doing what you love, you know, none of that stuff matters anyways, but it. Quickly catches up with you and I think you're you're right our job like you all have had, you know, really great You know success and reviews and you I don't want to mention because you don't want to you don't like the the reviews Tracy But you just got nominated for James Beard There's a lot of good happening.
[00:45:21] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
No, I mean, I like I like I love that I just mean like I guess reviews. I'm referring to like the Google and yeah, of course.
[00:45:27] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah Yeah.
[00:45:28] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
When I say that, I'm certainly thankful for all the positive stuff.
[00:45:33] Josh Sharkey:
But no, I love it. And it's very, and by the way, like I've never met you all before, and I've never even been to the restaurant, but it's very clear just, you know, chatting with you too, that you clearly like love what you do.
[00:45:42]
And I have to imagine that shows in the food. I can't wait to come check it out. So let's, let's talk about the food a little bit, because by the way, congrats on the James Beard finalists. That's amazing. Can't wait.
[00:45:51] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
Thanks, Josh.
[00:45:52] Josh Sharkey:
See how that goes. That's game changer. So, This is sort of just a throwback to then think about what's happening today, only because, you know, Tracy and I'm sure Arjav, it's the same.
[00:46:02]
I don't, I don't know a lot about the front of house, been back house my whole life, but like, have you ever thought about like, how does, how does Mark Ladner or Michael Anthony or, or Shay show up in what you're doing today? Do you ever like see that in, in things that you're doing or things that you're cooking or working or, you know, on the service side or?
[00:46:16] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
Yeah, I mean, You know, I think when a lot of us were coming up through the time period we did, I started in New York around 2008. So we're certainly not like the old school generation, but it's different than it is in 2024. So we were still working the, you know, extremely long weeks, not a lot of pay. And we were just, there was just like, I don't know, maybe it was the people I was around.
[00:46:38] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
We were all just like in it to win it, in it to be our best, in it to learn, to be hungry. And so I was like 120 percent locked in. I wanted to work at like a Del Posto. I worked my sixth day. We had two days off and then I worked my sixth day for free with pastry with Brooks, because I wanted to learn, you know what I mean?
[00:46:55]
When like that was. We were all like very hungry, you know, and I think I just absorbed it all. Like the way, you know, we make soups here, purees here. Like I learned from Shay, like how to sweat the onions till they're like super, super sweet. That's the base of your sauce. And then how to like fully cook, you know, the veg and like how to make that puree super creamy and like all of like the very little things that go into something.
[00:47:21]
are so important and a lot of our dishes have like three things on the plate, you know, and some of the looks that are like, that's it, you know, and it's like, yeah, that's it, you know, and I think what's hard about cooking up Birdie’s is that it is so simple and there's nowhere to hide, you know, and if it's wrong, it's like glaringly wrong, you know, and so it's so simple, but as you know, simple is it.
[00:47:42]
easy when it comes to making our pastas. Like we don't make like Del Posto's, you know, huge kitchen. The pasta line had fresh dry and risotto stations within the pasta line. And we just have like garde manger, a roast and then like a support position. That's it. And we have like 75 seats. So, and we cook all in minutes.
[00:48:02]
So it gets cranking and it's, it's a hard, It moves fast and it's challenging. So, but we still cook obviously our pasta to, to order build pan sauces and the way in which we build our pan sauces is very much inspired by what I learned at Del Poto, you know, and like the viscosity of the sauce and how long the pasta and the pan and how much it's cooked.
[00:48:22]
And, you know, it's hard. It's hard to do that and also be cooking fish. Mm-hmm. Meat at the same time all man do, like, if not, there's no soupy, nothing's pre-cooked. You're flashy like. It's not easy, you know, and so I think to do that all really well is a big challenge. You know, a lot of the things I do with vegetables are inspired by my time at Blue Hill and with Mike at Gramercy so much.
[00:48:43]
I learned a ton from Mike. I was with Mike for five years. And, you know, I made the soups for a year there before I got promoted to sous chef. I was tournot and I was like in charge of the soup. So every week I had a new soup. And then one day we never had soups on the menu at Birdies for like the first year.
[00:48:56]
And our job was like, I did a soup randomly, like just for, tried it for a day. I was like, this might be a terrible idea. It's not shareable. This is dumb. And then our Joe's like, Oh my God, why are we doing soups? And so now we're like, yeah, okay, let's just, let's just be doing soups. And now like soups kind of our thing.
[00:49:10] ]
Like we're like a secret soup restaurant, you know?
[00:49:13] Josh Sharkey:
That’s so funny. That's so funny.
[00:49:14]
Yeah. And now I don't have to think about a soup. I'm just like right off ingredients and we go, you know what I mean? And so I think about my mentors and the people I worked with. literally every day. I mean, that stuff is like embedded. Yeah. You know? Yeah.
[00:49:25] Josh Sharkey:
I think that's honestly like one of the beautiful things about cooking is it's an everyday thing. Anytime I'm washing basmati rice and the rice is going through my fingers and I'm like looking for the clear water, like Floyd Cardoz comes to mind every single time. Or if I'm passing a sauce through a Tammy, there's a sous chef I had who would like yell at me for not, but there's a million of those things, you know?
[00:49:47]
And I think that's the beautiful thing about food, especially when you care and You're learning so much and I'm sure our job, I don't mean to like, you know, throw it all in the kitchen here because I'm sure there's a bunch of stuff on the server side as well. Like, I think that's a beautiful thing about restaurants, right, is like there's so many of those memories.
[00:50:01]
Once you do actually then have your own place, or even if you don't, like there's those things that just stick with you forever because you do them so often, you know,
[00:50:08]
and like making a salad. Like I was on a Garde Manger station, every single restaurant I worked at, I never walked into a restaurant as a sous chef or a CDC or an executive chef.
[00:50:16]
Like I always start at the bottom of Garde Manger. I was a line cook for many, many years and Garde Manger is still my favorite station. And like, I love making a really nice salad. And there's so many things that can go wrong with making a salad that a lot of young cooks don't understand. You know what I mean?
[00:50:32]
And like, I think about Lee at Lula and at Crew and every restaurant I worked at, like the principles to making a nice, fluffy, properly dressed salad, you know, and like something Shay used to say. He was like, everything you make, try to make it the best anyone's ever made it. Even if it's a failing meal, whatever it is, just try to make it the best.
[00:50:50]
You know, and I think that's what we always try to do is just make it the best. Is it always the best? No. I mean, we cook very spontaneously here. We don't, I don't do much recipe testing, if any. And so I think that kind of spontaneous style might have like kind of been like passed down like from Boule to like Shea and Dan a little bit and I picked a little bit of that up and yeah it's all I never want to take credit for like what we do here it's like all so many years of training under these Really smart people.
[00:51:18] Arjav Ezekiel:
It's funny when people are like, Tracy, you're like an overnight success. You know? I'm like, yeah, it took like 18 years to become an overnight success. Yeah. You know? And a lot of hard work. There's no shortcuts to the like discipline of, of cooking or service or whatever it is. It's like a craft. You know?
[00:51:34] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. A hundred percent. Okay. So, so you change the menu every day and this part, this is where I ask questions because Just about.
[00:51:41] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
Just, just about. Well. There's some days when the menu is like, the seasons aren't changing, but yeah, just. Yeah.
[00:51:46] Josh Sharkey:
Even if it's every week or, or, or every month or something, like, you're, you're changing it often. So I mean, imagine there's not a ton of recipes. So I guess one, I'm sure you have some sort of like, you know, base recipes or like that you're like using to, you know, fold into things or. And you were talking about like, you know, Michael Anthony, if you have like a chicken liver mousse or something, I'm sure there's a recipe for that, I hope.
[00:52:08]
But um, from what I've heard you speak about, there is a lot of like, just feel, and I'm curious, How do you make sure that the cooks are cooking through the sort of the vision of what you want every day when there's not as much structure? And also, are the cooks making their own dishes as well to go on the menu?
[00:52:28] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
Not really right now. Right now it's, we're still like, we're hitting our third year this summer. And I definitely like pick their brain. I'd be like, all right, guys, what do you want to cook today? What are you feeling next week? We're getting this and any ideas. And so we'll kind of like talk about the menu like that.
[00:52:44]
Or like a few weeks ago, had a cook say, Hey, we have a lot of, you know, strawberries that are like really soft. Do you want me to make jam or something? I was like, yeah, make it, make a jam, you know, make it delicious. And then we'll season it together, adjust acid, salt, whatever. And then. Okay, so we've got strawberry jam and let's just throw it under this flowerless, you know, chocolate cake and 90s vibes.
[00:53:07]
Creme fraiche, go. You know what I mean? So like, I think that a couple of things like that have happened before.
[00:53:12] Arjav Ezekiel:
It's still very much Tracy's menu.
[00:53:14] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
It's still very much mine, but I still like to, you know, pick people's brains and then we'll taste things together. I'll be like, what do you guys think it needs?
[00:53:20]
You know, and it's like part teaching and part, you know, us cooking together. You know what I mean? In terms of your like recipe question, I've had to get better at writing recipes by nature of me having a child a year and a half ago. I got really sick when I got pregnant and then I was like, I had no sous chef at the time.
[00:53:37]
I knew who I was going to promote to sous chef at month five or six and get her trained up. So whenever I deliver the baby, then I can, you know, Be with the baby a lot. And, you know, especially for those first couple of months, but then I got really ill like week five and it was hard for me to be there and prep.
[00:53:53]
And I'd always been, you know, wrote myself a prep list every day. I was the only one who could expedite. I was teaching, showing every day and just immediately I'm out, I'm out of, I'm out of the system that I'm very much a part of, you know, and that was extraordinarily challenging because I was not prepared to not be able to work.
[00:54:11]
I just couldn't stand up. I couldn't hold down water. I was like, It was rough. So in that moment, I learned that I need to have some recipes. So like, we have like certain vinaigrette styles and then like that kind of changes, you know, the vinegar, or maybe it's like the ratio of garlic, depending on our foods, like American seasonal with Italian or French influences.
[00:54:30]
So something more Italian or French is kind of. always what I'm asking because I'm really inspired by Italian French grandmothers, but it is with central Texas produce and then woven in the techniques I've kind of learned through my training. Yeah. I've learned to have some recipes and I'm trying to have more.
[00:54:44]
Especially as I dream of a cookbook someday. I'm like, okay, gotta be writing these things down to answer your question. It's, it's very challenging and I'm trying to get better at writing some recipes. Yeah.
[00:54:53] Arjav Ezekiel:
But there's, I think, like, I think there's a couple of people on the kitchen team who like, Tracy can say, like, this is what I want.
[00:54:59]
Like, this is like the idea I'm going for and they can cook it. And then Tracy, this is very close. And then Tracy will season, like she was saying, and adjust. So like, And I think over the last two years, like the two most senior members of like the kitchen team have absorbed like what Tracy, like her style of cooking, I think, and the way like she likes to approach her sauce work or, you know, like, uh, Just the development of an idea.
[00:55:24]
And like, I think they now understand like the ingredients she likes using, how like the kind of vinegars she likes using in certain things. And
[00:55:30] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
How we sweat aromatics. And like, so yeah, for example, our execs, who's Jeff PJ, she's been with me since we opened and she worked at Grand Mercy Tavern with our job in that chapter.
[00:55:39]
And she's someone for a very long time, I've been able to just rattle off ingredients, especially like when we first opened, I would just be like, sweat this, de glaze with that,
[00:55:47]
that, go, you know what I mean? And like, she was like, okay, you know, it wasn't like, oh, wait, can you write it down for me? Can we, can you give me a gram amount?
[00:55:54]
Like she just got it, you know, and she just.
[00:55:58]
So like, yeah, PJ’s amazing and Phil's essentially my daytime cook that's been with us for Almost two
[00:56:03]
years. Almost two years. Yeah. And he also, he does a lot of our cooking before I get in. And so a lot of the, I'm trying to write, get better writing recipes, like I said, but he's good at going with his gut too.
[00:56:13]
Our own like sketch out a recipe. I'm like, if this feels wrong in your gut, taste it and like adjust and let's talk about it and taste it. Yeah.
[00:56:20] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, honestly, it's like sometimes. I mean, the weight of everything is one thing, that's gonna change, you know, the pear is gonna have a different sweetness level and things like that, but like, the explanation of like, what, of what you want to happen, I mean, it, it can be verbal, right, but it's still a recipe, right, like, how do you like this, what, your, your, your vegetables, and, you know, at what point are they, how much do you want to crash the sauce, things like that.
[00:56:40]
I am curious because, Arjav, you're pretty deep into the wine world, are there times when, it sounds like most of the time the genesis of, of your food is like, I have an ingredient that I love, I have an idea, you know, is there ever a time when the genesis is, holy shit, I got this really incredible bottle of wine, and I'd love to have a substitute that goes really well with this, and then you guys work on
[00:56:58] Arjav Ezekiel:
Like, I'm fundamentally against that idea. Oh, really? Like, I think, like, I'm driven by food, like, I'm in this industry because I love food. Eating and I love restaurants. I love kitchens. Like all my best friends have always been cooks. I kind of fell into the wine thing, you know, like, but because I didn't have the chops to like cook. I just like, I was like, I need to hang out with chefs.
[00:57:17]
I married one. But I think like for me, like wine at its best is in the restaurant setting is like a condiment to the food. Right. Like it's, I think Danny used, Meyer used to always say it was like the ketchup on a burger, you know, it's like, it adds a little sweetness, um, acidity to balance everything out.
[00:57:33]
And like, we think about like the by the glass program, especially we have about a dozen wines on the, on the by the glass list based around what Tracy's cooking. So like, I'll think about like, okay, next month, it's going to be hot. Like I know Tracy's probably going to have some chilled dishes on the menu.
[00:57:49]
What kind of wines do we want? You know, do we want, we want chill, then we want chill reds by the glass that time of year, if we want red, like we don't have to have like a full bodied wine. Unless there's no rules to that. It's like kind of built around what goes well with the food, because we don't want the wine to distract from the food or overpower the food.
[00:58:07]
We just always want it to be in service of like a great dining experience.
[00:58:11] Josh Sharkey:
I love that, man. Not all sommeliers would say that, but that's amazing, man. I love it. It's so true. And, and also very Danny Meyer, but also, you know, I think you've said this before too. And look, there are times when you understand, you know, the story behind a wine and the, and, and, and the producer and.
[00:58:28]
You know, and things like that, but yeah, for the most part, you know, you're, you're eating food and that wine is kind of like, you know, again, a creative experience as opposed to like, you know,
[00:58:37] Arjav Ezekiel:
I'm like, do you want guests to kind of lead that, right? Like, I don't want to, like, my least favorite thing is going to a restaurant.
[00:58:41]
Like, they're like, Oh, there's the wine guys. Let's just talk as you're off about wine. Like, I don't like, I'm going to hang out with my wife and my kid. And like, and so we train the team actually, like give people exactly what they need. Tell them what the grape is. With the name of the producer, you know, if you're opening the bottle of wine and you could like engage them, like maybe give them a little like 10 second blurb on the producer, but we try not to like make wine more than it is.
[00:59:09]
It's an agricultural product. It's like something we put in our bodies. Like let's respect it. Let's respect the people that, you know, commit their lives to growing these grapes and producing these incredible wines. But the way we honor those ones by treating them with like reverence, the way we serve it, the proper temperature, making sure we store it correctly and make sure that we're trained to have those conversations.
[00:59:30]
But we let guests lead us into those conversations. We never assume that like a guest wants to have that conversation.
[00:59:34] Josh Sharkey:
Does that make sense? All right. So you two work together and you have a kid now. Your kid is like 15, 16 months with it? He's 18 months almost. Yeah. All right. I have two kids. How old? Yeah.
[00:59:46]
I have a three year old and my son will be five next month. His birthday is the day before mine. And a couple things. One, probably goes without saying, but like it is just so much harder on the mom than the dad. I mean, maybe in a few years it'll change, but like it's, you know, meaning like when they get, when my kid's like 10 or something, but like, wow, like it's just so much on the mom the first couple of years, at least.
[01:00:10]
And it's fine. We were talking about it. I was talking about this with Caroline as well, cause her and her husband, the restaurant together. And How do you two manage like the distribution of help and support, and then you could just tell me to fuck off if this is not a thing, but like, is there any sort of, like, dealing with resentment of you having more than the dad?
[01:00:34]
I haven't met a mom that didn't have some, but um, it's tough.
[01:00:38] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
Yeah, I definitely, it's funny, because we both had long fertility struggles. And so we kind of became friends via DM like, Oh, you're going through this too. And you're a chef and doing IVF in the shop. So we got to connect over that and then being new moms and chefs.
[01:00:54]
So yes, I've definitely felt all the things you're talking about. I think for me, since I was so ill when I was pregnant, that was kind of my hardest chapter was actually being pregnant and not being prepared to be. in very limited capacity abruptly. Um, so once we had Remy, I was like, okay, at least I can kind of function.
[01:01:14]
But yes, like to name it, like the breastfeeding, it's a lot, all the things that go around, you know, they say air quotes, mom brain, you know, of just like, do we have this, do we have the, yeah, the list, the ongoing lists of everything that needs to happen. I felt like we've had a lot of those conversations. I think at the beginning of any relationship industry or not, it's like, how many diapers have you changed today?
[01:01:34]
Cause this is how many I've changed, you know, and like, haven't you thought about the doctor's appointment? So for us, I think. And yes, we've had all of those conversations. We've gotten to be in a pretty good place now where it's kind of like, okay, our job will own the doctor stuff. All own
travel, feeding.
[01:01:52]
Yeah. Our job stepped up with like cook now he's a, you know, a year and a half. So he can, he eats solid foods and stuff. So we split cooking meals. We've just kind of like figured out a divide and conquer mentality, not this age, but yes, I definitely think the first, especially three months, I think there are certain things that the traditional mom will, will just take on.
[01:02:12]
So I, I think just like kind of naming it and me naming, like, I'm feeling a little resentful and just kind of talking about it. It's been really healthy for us, especially because our Jeff's a really fantastic dad. And he's like, what, what do I do? What do I do? Just tell me what to do. And I'm like, Well, why don't you know, why don't you instinctively know, you know, and I think that's pretty common. Oh, it's, it's a hundred percent.
[01:02:29] Josh Sharkey:
We have same exact conversations with my wife. We have couples therapy even still to, to manage it and, and we, we did it ahead of time because we knew and yeah, a lot of it's just like naming, like. I understand that there's resentment and I understand why it makes sense.
[01:02:44]
And let me just see what I can do to, you know, to, to help as much as possible. But it's a lot of work. Totally. I think one thing
[01:02:52] Arjav Ezekiel:
That's really, really helped us when she say is that like, we've gotten a lot more organized, I think in the absence of organization, I think we were all kind of flailing for a long time, like just kind of reacting, Oh, the restaurant needs this.
[01:03:03]
Oh, but like, what are we doing at home? Like, you know, now, like, I think Tracy's gotten incredibly good at like blocking everything on her calendar, including like, I need to think about the menu for out. Yeah. Leave me alone. Yeah. It's on my calendar, you know, and I think.
[01:03:16] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
Yeah. Living by the calendar has been something that has been really beneficial. Like we do this thing, you'll probably do it too, which we didn't know about the first year of being new parents was on the Sunday meeting where we like map out the week, map out. What are childcare options are, what are, or what blocks are, who's, what meetings do we have? When are we working out because you got to make time for yourself.
[01:03:37] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
It's, you know, obviously you can't just be the giver and not fill your own cup.
[01:03:40] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah.
[01:03:40] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
So like just thinking about all of those things rather than where we were for a long time, especially when I was ill, when I was pregnant, which was living day to day, like, Oh God, we're out of this. Oh God, we're out of that.
[01:03:51]
You know, especially the way I order is like from farmers. So like, you can imagine the chaos and, Oh, we don't have this today. Oh, where are we getting this today? And our job didn't know all the nuanced relationships I had with my farmers and how I ordered. So you can imagine the chaos that was, but now we've like, I feel like we've really gotten a grasp of our lives via our calendar, via like a 30 minute Sunday meeting to just get on the same page.
[01:04:13]
And, Oh, you've got that meeting. I didn't realize this week was so crazy for you. And if, if we're aligned and we're good as husband and wife, then like. We're also going to be good as partners in our business, but like, if we're fighting, like that's inevitably going to trickle into Birdie’s. We didn't make sure that we're good, so we can be great for everyone else.
[01:04:32] Arjav Ezekiel:
The calendar is key. Yeah. We weren't investing as much time or energy into like our relationship either. It became about the baby in the restaurant, you know, like for like the first eight months and I think like, I felt resentful about that and I think like, you know, we talked about it and like, like now, for example, like every week, for example, Tracy and I will always go get lunch once a week.
[01:04:50]
Sure. And it's just like, and like, we call it like our EQ lunch.
[01:04:54] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
Sounds very corporate y. Yeah, but
[01:04:56] Arjav Ezekiel:
Like, it's like, this is where we just check in and see how each other are doing. And like, it's a non negotiable, like we do it every week. Like the day can move, but like, we're not going to not do it. And it's like, how are you doing?
[01:05:07]
Like, we can talk about work. It doesn't have to like, you know, we have dates where we don't talk about work, but like these EQ meetings, it's like, how are you doing? Oh, I'm stressed about like this relationship at work, or I'm stressed about, You know, this food festival that's coming up or like, you know, we're stressed about these three weeks of travel.
[01:05:22]
We have back to back to back with Remy, like, how are we going to manage that? And then we'll talk about like how that makes us feel. And then we'll do like the Sunday afterwards, we'll talk about how to maybe address some of those things to like creating a list or priorities. And like, you know, we've gotten better about like, Creating lists of like what we need to get done.
[01:05:39]
And then like, are these energizing, like things de energizing, we're kind of neutral and like kind of make sure, like, if we're doing something that empties our cup, we're also refilling it. But it all starts with us, right? Like, and I think like as much as we want to take care of our team, if we're not taking care of each other and ourselves, like it's very hard for us to be great leaders.
[01:05:57]
And I think acknowledging that and realizing like it actually begins with us, like if we're good to each other, if we're in a good health, like healthy mental space, we're going to be much more effective at leading our team and like the spirit we want them to. Are we perfect at it? No. Like for nights like Tracy doesn't sleep or I don't sleep and we're cranky and like we come to work, that crankiness spills over sometimes.
[01:06:18]
It's like, that's just life. All we can do is like do our best to make sure that it is like the rarest of like occurrences. It's not like an everyday thing. Yeah,
[01:06:27] Josh Sharkey:
100%. We do the same thing with, by the way, with scheduling time. It sounds like so like, like schedule this thing, but you have to, because otherwise, you know, with the baby, it always comes first.
[01:06:37]
And if you don't find that time, and I remember some of the first two, two years, I blocked out a lot of it. I do remember that like cleaning up toys. Like you have to put, you have to play every toy to clean it, to put it away, you know, you're like matching giant animals just to put the puzzle away and things like that.
[01:06:53]
I'm sure it's the same for you. So I'll just ask because, you know, I, I learned so much, but like, how has Remy like helped you in terms of how you lead, how you prioritize your time, how you interact with your team differently than before you had Remy?
[01:07:07] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
I mean, he is definitely without a doubt our number one priority. I think being a parent for me just really reminds me to always lead with empathy and always make sure there's just like the human aspect or something about. seeing a toddler and their excitement and energy every day to just kind of remind you what matters in life, you know? And so ultimately, I think that even though we're still very serious about what we do and we love our restaurant and our food and our hospitality, Like we're still just cooking dinner, you know, and what really matters ultimately is like, is our family good?
[01:07:46]
Is our team? Well, is everyone's mental health in a good place and physical health in a good place? All right, you know, like we're good Let's not get lost in the small stuff because ultimately what matters is, you know The relationships we have with each other and our guests, you know, that's ultimately why we're doing what we do and taking care of our family So I think it's helped I think we opened Birdie’s with a really good head on our shoulders because of all the time we had leading up to it.
[01:08:10]
But I think being a parent just allows us to remember what really matters.
[01:08:14] Arjav Ezekiel:
Yeah. I think for me, it's been perspective. I feel like what Tracy was talking about, patience, just like not something that's like a naturally occurring, like our job, like trait, something that I've had to like realize I need to develop.
[01:08:27]
So I've worked really hard on developing my patients. And then I think the last piece of it is I think the thing I'm most proud of is we still remain a great team. Like, I think we still are madly in love with each other, at least I'm madly in love with her. And I think the last piece of it is like, we've taken some of the things that we saw were like non negotiables for ourselves and said like, Oh, we need to make this a thing for the team.
[01:08:54]
So like our AGM just had a baby, like January. We now offer, like, we have a family leave program for the team. So like, you know, including the line staff. So our managers get two months full salary and our line team gets $500 a week. It's a perfect, I wish we could give more, but like, it's something amazing, man.
[01:09:14]
So that's like, you know, if they, if they, Do you have a kid like they know they have a job waiting for them when they come back and they have something hitting their bank account every month so that like they're not so stressed about like where the next dollar is going to go from, you know, and I think that peace of mind, like I think about like how all I wanted to do for the first two months was like be a dad.
[01:09:37]
Like I didn't care about anything, you know, I still don't really care that much about anything else, but like, there's something that like, it just reorients you and like, and also fills your cup. Like, I feel like I'm a, I understand how, like a deeper side of hospitality. Like one of the things we do now is like, when I'm talking about a lineup today is like, when, People with kids come in, we now like point out where the changing table, we'll put a changing table in our bathroom.
[01:10:00]
So we point out where the changing table is, you know, when parents walk into, they know like, Hey, we've thought about this, I can care about you. Like something we're going to talk about today at lineup is like asking about the kind of pacing they want for their meal. Cause like, if there's a hard out, like, Oh, like there's a, there's a baby that needs to go to sleep.
[01:10:18]
Like that's an act of hospitality. Be like, You know, we're happy to go like at our normal pace, but if there's like, you know, a bedtime that you're worried about, let us know what it is so that we can like adjust what we're doing and like, what, like, that's a, like, that costs us nothing, but it's just the act of thinking about it that suddenly makes this parent feel like, Oh yeah, I love this is actually going to be a different dining experience.
[01:10:39]
So we were in Philly. I'm like, we were shocked at how many restaurants didn't have high checks,
[01:10:44] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
Casual restaurants,
[01:10:45] Arjav Ezekiel:
Casual pizzerias. Yeah. And we're like, these are small things that we can all pay attention to, but that create, um, like when we go out, we want to eat and drink, like we're ordering the whole menu and we're drinking great wine, you know what I mean?
[01:10:58]
But like, if, if you were going to
[01:10:59] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
But sometimes you're going to, we're also like realistic, like, Hey, is there any way we can be on hour and a half? Like, you know what I mean? I'm kind of asking them before we order to make sure we're on the same page and they feel like they can do that, you know? And so I think, and we also ask them, like, People because sometimes parents don't want to rush and they're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, we're good.
[01:11:15]
He's chill. Like we want the two hour experience, you know, we're here, we're here to dine. And so like we just want to make sure that we're asking, we see them.
[01:11:22] Josh Sharkey:
It's so smart. We want them to have the best
[01:11:24] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
experience with their family.
[01:11:25] Josh Sharkey:
We get in and we order right away. Like we're like, how long is it until meltdown?
[01:11:29]
So we get, we get their orders in right away. You know, it's interesting and, and you're, I think as Remy gets a little bit older, you'll probably see this even more. Yeah. But, the thing that has stuck with me the most now, as a parent, that has changed the way that I lead, is that you really start to see how people are separated from the problems or the things that they do.
[01:11:52]
You know, if your kid breaks your, something nice in your house, like, you don't want to yell at them, or like, you know, or if they start screaming frantically, And just being like, when, when someone's over, you don't yell at them, you know, like something's wrong, there's something in their brain that they can't express and, and they don't have the, the ability to like, you know, share why, and that's how they're doing it, or they have some sort of feeling, and actually everybody is that, you know, everybody that does something in your business, in your life, there's something there, they, maybe they had a bad day, Maybe they're, they're holding some sort of resentment towards you for something that they, that they need to talk about or whatever it is.
[01:12:28]
There's almost always like some reason why they're doing the thing that they're doing. And I find that it's helped me a lot to like. stop and like, Hmm, I wonder why they did that as opposed to before, to be honest, I would be like, what the hell? Like, why did you do that? Like, you know, kind of like go right after them.
[01:12:44]
I don't think it's a softness, but it's, it's more just like a, like a new curiosity and not going right to like judgment when somebody does something wrong. I mean, this is coming from, you know, restaurants that we all come from, like where just bullet would just walk in and, you know, tell you you're a terrible person and walk away, you know, So the, there's a, there's a big gap from what I came from to now.
[01:13:06]
But you worked at Bouley? Yeah. Yeah. That's where actually where I, where I met Jess. Duplicate, well, she wasn't Jess, she was Jess Mark back then. Yeah. We, I worked there with that. That was Tosi was there and Evan, rich and Cesar and, I mean, that was before I went to squad.
Long time ago.
[01:13:22] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
What year was that?
[01:13:23] Josh Sharkey:
That was 2004. Right after Tabla. Yeah. Then went, it went to catch there. Anyways, we're wrapping up here, I'm assuming of lineup soon. I didn't get to ask this to, this is totally random now, and this is actually selfishly just for me. I know all the good spots, like, there's a bunch of good restaurants in Austin, and I'm gonna obviously come check out yours next time, but like, where do you get a good breakfast taco, pizza, and Thai food?
[01:13:47]
Are there, like, are there options for that in Austin?
[01:13:50] Arjav Ezekiel:
Thai food's hard, I think, like, nothing like Uncle Boon's, I think, but like, Austin has its own kind of like, things that they do really well, like strengths, you know? I think like, One of our favorite restaurants is Kanji, which is a Guyanese inflected Caribbean restaurant run by our good friend Thibault, which is incredible.
[01:14:10]
We go to Este a lot, which is like coastal Mexican food. That's just like for meeting some of the most talented people like I've ever met. Breakfast tacos would be like the OG kind of Veracruz, uh, flour, tortilla, migos, poblanos vibes. Like. I think for the intro, you know, don't fix Joe's is pretty good too.
[01:14:30]
Like, like an OG kind of spot. Joe's. Yeah. I'm writing this down. All day. And both of them are probably the two best pizza places in the city all day. If you're not like New York style pizza. Or Neo New York, as they like to call themselves. And then, uh, Delfino, which is like one of the best wineries in the city. Oh, and Fiore
[01:14:47] Josh Sharkey:
just opened up a pizza spot, right?
[01:14:49] Arjav Ezekiel:
Yeah, Bambino's really great. Actually, I forgot about Bambino, but Bambino's awesome. Yeah. Really fun. I love Fiore. Is
[01:14:54] Josh Sharkey:
Is there good ice cream? Is there a good ice cream spot in Austin?
[01:14:57] Arjav Ezekiel:
We'd like to go to this place called Dolce Gabbe, which is like a, uh, gelato spot.
[01:15:01] Josh Sharkey:
Okay. What's next? Are you thinking about another, another spot? One thing I was going to actually actually ask is, there's a line, I'm assuming, because there's no reservations. It reminds me of Franny's. You probably went there in Brooklyn back in the day. Is there a, is there a cocktail bar in the works so they have some place to wait?
[01:15:16] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
No, but we are allowed to serve wine in line. So our job has also a great NA list so people can wait in line and have a beverage of their choosing.
[01:15:25] Josh Sharkey:
That's cool.
[01:15:26] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
So sometimes people will drink baller champagne in line, high life, or like a I don't know, refreshing non alcoholic drink. So we don't have a physical bar per se, but you can just stand and have a beverage.
[01:15:38] Arjav Ezekiel:
So I think like for us, like we, you know, kind of like leaning into our core competencies. Like I've never been a bartender. I don't know. Like, could we open a cocktail bar? That's pretty good. Like, I think so. But we like investing our time into things that we think really added a lot of value. And there's incredible bars already in Austin.
[01:15:55]
I think for us, like. There are so many great bars in Austin. Like, I don't know if like we have a perspective or a voice that would really add to the conversation. I think for us, like it'll be restaurants. We definitely want to do like a couple more restaurants, but I don't think we feel like I always think about how Danny waited like 10 years between Union Square Cafe and Gramercy.
[01:16:15]
I think when you're in it, like you sometimes feel like, Oh, I've got this moment or like, we got to do this. And like, people are throwing offers your way. And like, you think. Our general, like, sense is that, like, it's important to kind of slow down when everybody else thinks you should speed up because I think we're like at this inflection point where what we do and the way we think about like our, like, you know, our growth over a 10 year time horizon, this next two years will be really important to, like, think about how we want to accomplish, like, our, our goals and then also establish what those goals are.
[01:16:47]
Right. And I think. Like, I don't want to like, I would be a restaurant group. I don't think Tracy does either. That's like, Oh, let's just open restaurants. Like, you know, we need to have a, why, what are we adding? What is like, what's our connection to the food? Are we going to give a shit? Like, are we going to really care? Yeah.
[01:17:04] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
Does honestly, from a business perspective, does a deal make sense? Is the space, right? Like there's a lot of, we don't want to open another restaurant for the sake of opening one. It has, it just Everything has to be right. Like the right time for our family, for our business. Do we have the right people in place?
[01:17:18]
We're ready to be promoted and have a new opportunity. Is there a cuisine that Fits in the right space with the right real estate deal. You know, it's, it's so multifaceted that it just kind of depends.
[01:17:29] Arjav Ezekiel:
Yeah. Always starts. But the one truth is it always starts with like life design for us. Like, what is our life? Like, do we want to have another kid or do we want, like, you know, we ask ourselves these questions before we talk about like the business, because like, it has to fit or like, and the, the most important, like one of the most important pieces of that is like, do we have talent that we want to grow? You know, I think like, do we have people on our team that are ready for that next big step?
[01:17:52]
And like, I think if and when that happens, I think we'll be ready to open the restaurant. But I think we, we don't feel like an urgency. Like there are moments where I'm like, Oh, we got to take advantage of all this incredible, like press that we have and like this moment.
[01:18:05] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
And then like, he's pushing it. I'm always like, yeah, like it's gotta be right.
[01:18:09] Josh Sharkey:
But I mean, you're right. I find that the biggest driver usually for another restaurant is. upper mobility for the team, right? You have this team and they're great and like, okay, now I've been here for four years. And you don't always actually have to open another restaurant to do that.
[01:18:23]
You know, you could sort of horizontally expand, just come up with, you know, a CPG thing or like, you know, some other sort of, you know, concept in the, in the morning or something. And they, they, they run that. I always find that does tend to be like the, the catalyst of like, okay, we, we're either going to lose this person because they've been here 10 years or we, you know, we do something new and we give them a spot or something.
[01:18:43]
But sounds like you guys had some time before that.
[01:18:45] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
We're busy with the present right now.
[01:18:47] Josh Sharkey:
You got your hands full with Remy, too.
[01:18:49] Tracy Malecheck-Ezekiel:
It's true.
[01:18:50] Josh Sharkey:
Well, this was awesome. Thanks so much for taking some time. And I'm really glad we got to, you know, just chat before I go and visit Birdie’s, I'm sure. It's just gonna be great.
[01:18:59]
Keep getting busier and busier, but I'm stoked to come check it out. So really great to meet you both. Likewise, man. Thanks Josh. Yeah. Thanks for tuning into the meez podcast. The music from the show is a remix of the song art mirror by an old friend, hip hop artist, Fresh Daily. For show notes and more visit getmeez.com/podcast.
[01:19:17] Josh Sharkey:
com forward slash podcast. That's G E T M double E Z. com forward slash podcast. If you enjoyed the show, I'd love it if you can share it with fellow entrepreneurs and culinary pros. And give us a five star rating wherever you listen to your podcasts. Keep innovating. Don't settle. Make today a little bit better than yesterday.
[01:19:35]
And remember, it's impossible for us to learn what we think we already know. See you next time.
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