[00:05:40]
I started at 14, yeah. All the way up to making sushi, which by the way, it's like, I know it's super hard to even get an apprenticeship to make sushi. So that must have been pretty amazing and serendipitous that you're able to do that. Like, what was it like working for him?
[00:05:53] Jesse Ito:
Well, I mean, besides him being this old Japanese chef, I guess he wasn't that old when we started learning.
[00:06:00]
But what does that mean? Like, I mean, it's Japanese culture. It's just, it's very, it's very intense. And it's, it's, you know, you get like punished almost when you make mistakes. I'm sure it's the same with French and French kitchens. Like it's, it's old school cooking. It's old school kitchen. It's all about precision and, and methodology.
[00:06:21]
And philosophy and, and yeah, you're working with really expensive ingredients. So if you mess up, it's a big deal. So you have to do the same thing over and over again for years, like washing rice and cutting vegetables or making Tamago beyond that he's my dad. So there's all that, that it's layered into that because there's resentments and there's, you know, you're, you're more cat, you're more comfortable with each other to, I could talk back cause I'm his son, it's, it's a little different.
[00:06:49]
Right. But it was good at the end of it because, you know, he can't, he couldn't fire me and I couldn't walk out. And there were moments where we definitely got to that point. It was, it's really hard.
[00:06:58] Josh Sharkey:
That dynamic must be really difficult. I mean, I, I can't imagine, like, you know, I've, I come from those kinds of kitchens where you get plates thrown at you and, you know, yell that, and the idea that that person doing that is your dad and you don't really have a choice adds this whole other layer to it.
[00:07:18]
That must've been, I mean, even as a, as a kid must've been pretty difficult.
[00:07:21] Jesse Ito:
Yeah, it was intense, but also there's a whole nother part, like, when he brought me on at 14, I was a dishwasher, and that was when my parents, like, officially got divorced. Yeah. And he wasn't at the house anymore, so I think a large part of it was he wanted to see me more.
[00:07:38]
Yeah. Did he ever say that to you, that that was something you said? No, but it just like, the timing, like, it made sense, like all of a sudden, I had to go work one day a week, or I was offered the job, I forget if it was a choice or not, but I had to go work one day a week, starting at 14, and then it started from there.
[00:07:56]
So it was a good way to, you know, Spend time again, but it's a lot of time in it. And in that environment, my mom was there too. So they were divorced, owning that restaurant. That's nuts. I know it was nuts. Uh, there were definitely some hard times, but you know, we got through it and I learned a lot.
[00:08:12] Josh Sharkey:
What are the biggest takeaways that you, I mean, you obviously, now you have your own restaurant. So it's not like you worked in your dad's, you know, restaurant and then started a different kind of business. You literally, it's pretty linear. What are the biggest takeaways that you're, that you're like using today?
[00:08:29] Jesse Ito:
Yeah, I mean, to start to frame it, it was a small Japanese BYO, and, you know, Royal Sushi Izakaya is not a very small restaurant, you know, we seat about 70 people, and we have a ton of alcohol, you know, we have a booming bar program, so one of the big takeaways was that You know, when, when you open a restaurant or a business, it's got a, the business plan has to be bigger, like bigger thinking of what's going to happen later.
[00:08:57]
Cause when it came time, when I started getting approached to open Royal, my parents, they could still do the job and they were still relatively young, but. There was a thought in my mind of like what's going to happen because I could see it just getting really hard and I just saw if I stayed there, what, you know, what am I going to do?
[00:09:18]
Am I just, am I going to step in my dad's, you know, my shoes and take care and run the restaurant like he had run for all these decades? Or am I going to do my own thing there? Which I feel like was harder. So it's really about being very business oriented and, and kind of having a game plan of how the financial like strategy of a business right from the, from the get go, because there, there are times where like, I think we're poor.
[00:09:44]
I don't remember like not poor, but yeah, definitely hurting. It was a small restaurant and there were, you know, especially during like 2008 crisis, like the 2008, 2009, 2010. It was really hard. I'll, I'll never forget. And I just, I just wanted to avoid things like that, or just having such a small restaurant where we had to work all the time, we were open every Thanksgiving, every Christmas, it was just me, my mom and my dad on some of those like holidays.
[00:10:12]
We worked six days a week. My dad worked every day. Cause he went in on the Monday, we're closed to like prep more. There was no, there was no way to not work. There's no flexibility because it's so small. So. You know, our restaurant, with the way we staff, we can fortunately, there's some flexibility.
[00:10:30] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, it's so funny. I was just talking to someone today who has a really great bakery and we were having this conversation about, well, you know, I just want to try and figure out how to have one more day off where I can spend with my kids. And it is a tough, like, hump to get over when you have a business to think, I'm gonna need to spend some more money and figure out some more top line so that I can actually step back.
[00:10:55]
And I feel like, yeah, I'm assuming. You know, with your parents, there's that like level of, you know, I don't know if it's fear or, you know, trepidation of like, no, this is what we do. And it just means we have to work all the time. It sounds like you, you took that away from them of like, maybe there's a little bit more we can do.
[00:11:13] Jesse Ito:
Yeah. I mean, I still have that old school mentality. Grained in me. I mean, they're both immigrants. They came here and they opened a restaurant and they've worked their ass off to get, you know, to support me and my sister. And I'm extremely appreciative of them working with them. I saw it every day and that's built
[00:11:29]
That grit is built into me and I needed that to open Royal. I definitely did. But we're eight years in the Royal now and you know, businesses evolve and you need to, it can't be like that forever. It's not sustainable.
[00:11:41] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but I do agree, I think it has to be like that for a while, you know, for it to really work, you have to really, I mean, any restaurant, it's going zero to one, like, it's just a grind for a long time, and then, You do have to have some sort of, you know, light at the antenna of like once it's proven that it works as a concept that you start to, you know, be able to figure out ways to step back.
[00:12:06]
But yeah, there is no way around it. And I think it's an attribute that anybody, I don't know if you agree, like if you start a restaurant, if you think you're just gonna, you know, figure out ways to scale day one and just chill. Not chill, but like even just work normal hours. It's just not a thing.
[00:12:21] Jesse Ito:
Yeah. Like it. I mean, you always hear about it. Someone's like, Oh, someone wants to retire and open a restaurant. And you're just like, that's not, that's the opposite of retirement. That is like going back to work times a hundred. I mean, I say these things, it's nice to like kind of find some flexibility of time to go away.
[00:12:40]
But at the same time, what I have also learned of just owning a restaurant is. You have to accept that you are always going to work, like, if you're ever short staffed, or you need to train someone, you have to work, or, and it also empowers you, like, being the chef owner, I can't be tied to someone, like, having the d day, right?
[00:13:02]
If someone can't, like, either has to leave, or they, for some, for whatever reason, like, I can't be tied to that. And it's, it's really important that I can always step in and I can always, like, train up people or, you know, fill in at least temporarily for one position. You need to be able to do that in a restaurant.
[00:13:21]
Is your dad still working with you today? Yeah, he's still there. He works, like, limited hours and he comes, he actually makes the tamagoyaki every morning.
[00:13:32] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, I saw that. What's it like working with your dad now? It's not that the tables are turned, but, you know, it's, it's certainly a different dynamic.
[00:13:37] Jesse Ito:
Yeah, I mean, we've all changed over these eight years. I do have to say, for the better. And he, he's just, he's much happier these days. He has no stress. He has no, like, anxiety about the business. He actually, he doesn't really know, I don't really tell him any of the Issues going on. Mm-Hmm. , you know, there's always something going on.
[00:13:57]
Yeah. He, he doesn't hear any of that, so he's just like completely stress free. He comes in, he like, you know, does a couple things for a couple hours and then he goes home. He doesn't stay all the whole service and he's not there most nights.
[00:14:12] Josh Sharkey:
That's great. I mean, it must be, I mean, almost like a dream for him, you know, because he still gets to do like the thing.
[00:14:19]
That he loves, but he's not tied to the other part of the operation.
[00:14:23] Jesse Ito:
I mean, it took him time to adjust. Because he used to be the main star of the show, right? And the only way to be able to do this is where you're not, right? If you can leave at any time, you're not doing the omakase. You're not like, you know, running the menu.
[00:14:39]
You're not training people every day. But he still, you know, inputs his wisdom where he can with some of our, you know, long, young chefs and I can see that he enjoys and he enjoys his time away, but it was hard. I could, I knew it was hard for him to adjust to to enjoy the time away, right? Because if you've been working your whole life every day with no time to yourself, like, yeah.
[00:15:03]
You have to learn how to live outside of work. But once he did, he's happy. He's ready to go. He's like, alright, I'm leaving, bye. I'm going to go tend to my gardens or see my grandkids.
[00:15:16] Josh Sharkey:
It's funny that when you're working 100 hour weeks every week for years, I don't know, you know, about you, but I remember times where like, I would have like, You know, a day off, or like, God forbid, maybe more than a day off, and it, it's almost like that feeling, you know, if you, I mean, this is a terrible analogy, actually, just like when you get out of prison, but like, what do I do?
[00:15:36]
I don't know. I'm gonna, I'm gonna go stage somewhere, I guess, because, I don't know what to do with my, with my time on my day off, because all I know is, is working all the time. It does, it's like a, you have to learn how to, well, how to, like, Live and enjoy things again when you're working that much all the time.
[00:15:53] Jesse Ito:
Yeah, I mean, I feel like, so we were talking about that grit and like that, that like entrepreneurial, just you have to crush it when you open. You just have to work all the time. It's hard to turn that off when you don't need it, right? And like you just said, there are moments where you have downtime and you're just fidgeting, you're just like organizing things, you're just looking at your calendar, filling it up more, and, and you're just, you feel useless when you're not doing, and that's been the biggest thing for me to learn how to adjust for that when I don't have to do things, but for the most part, I'm still like that.
[00:16:28]
I mean, even my days off, I'm organizing, I'm cleaning, I'm, I don't stop, but, I can if I need to and it's taken a long time to do that and I'm sure you've, you know, faced the same thing.
[00:16:39] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, it's, I, I still have this problem even though like I don't really do anything day to day with the restaurants anymore. I have this, this business. I work all the time still, probably because, you know, we're still somewhat of a, of a younger business and, and I just have that same kind of maniacal kind of approach. I had a therapy session last and there's a new therapist and It was the first time, you know, she was asking these questions, and I've always thought, like, you know, like, why do I always work so hard?
[00:17:08]
Why am I always, like, doing more things? And I always thought it's because I have this sort of, you know, crazy ambition, which, you know, we do, right? But she's like, sounds like you're, like, running away from something really painful. I wonder how many of us that do this are actually doing that, are actually running away from something, you know, from, like, our childhood that was really painful.
[00:17:28]
I mean, your dad and mom, I'm sure, like, you know, that's not easy, immigrating to, like, a new country. I mean, maybe they were. Who knows? But I ask myself often, like, why do I work like this? You know, I don't necessarily need to, but I don't know if you have the same thoughts sometimes.
[00:17:43] Jesse Ito:
Yeah, there's probably something that happened to me at some point in my life that made me want to, I just, I can never stop trying to improve things.
[00:17:51]
I don't, I think that's a good thing and that's a bad thing.
[00:17:54] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, yeah, I mean you can't not have it for, especially for what you do, and And for a lot of things. All right, so we'll diverge from that for a minute, uh, because I want to start talking about some, some sushi things, because I have like a million questions, but your dad is like some, as a master at tamagoyaki, people listen, everybody probably knows what it is, you know, the, the cooked egg that you, that you grill, but like, What makes a great tamagoyaki?
[00:18:17]
Like how do you make sure that it's great? Like what are the things that like most of us probably don't know that other than like, of course you need to make it a million times over the course of your life to like perfect it. What are the things that we don't know about making a tamagoyaki that we probably should know?
[00:18:31] Jesse Ito:
Well, we use dashi now. So there's, there's several different versions and some people use like some, some are more like a cake version, or they use like shrimp paste or flour paste, or I'm sorry, fish paste that they kind of put in a mortar and mix it up. But we use the dashi version. That's, that's the one I grew up eating.
[00:18:48]
But, I mean, you kind of hit the nail on the head. The, the main thing to get really good at it is doing it. Over and over and over again, every day. My dad is a hundred times better than me. Cause he still does it every day. You need the Tamagoyaki square copper pan. That's really important to just for heat distribution.
[00:19:07]
And you need to regulate your heat when you're doing it. Cause you can't, you don't want to Brown the egg, but at the same time it needs to cook and you're essentially flipping it into layers and you need a lot of oil also to do this, but the main, what kind of oil do you use? Just regular oil, blended oil.
[00:19:23]
The main thing is just. Doing it all the time. It's that motion. It's that flipping motion. That's really hard. It's the flip it on itself. You got to really clean layers and that perfect like rectangular shape. It's just that motion and you just have to do it a lot.
[00:19:40] Josh Sharkey:
And the, the dashi that you use, are you using katsuobushi like a, like what, what type of are you using to make the dashi?
[00:19:49] Jesse Ito:
Yeah. There's anchovies in there. There's, you know, we use Kombu and Yeah. That's what we use for the whole restaurant. Yeah. Whoa,
[00:19:55] Josh Sharkey:
That's cool. You use anchovies in all your dashi? Almost all of it, yeah. Wow, that's cool. That feels like, like, I thought that was more of like a Korean thing.
[00:20:04] Jesse Ito: we use it. No, it, it's, it's, Yeah. It has been. That's cool. Not, not all dashi. I mean, like some of my sauce is like, it's just the katsuobushi and the kombu. But
[00:20:13]
like for the, for like making the soups and stuff, there's, there's some anchovies mixed in. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:20:18] Josh Sharkey:
Last year, I had the guys from Japanese Pantry on the show and I've been buying like the liquid Shio Koji from them for a long time.
[00:20:25]
I don't know if you ever used it. It's amazing. It's like the only place you can get this liquid shio koji. Yeah, shio koji is a flavor. Yeah, yeah, the liquid stuff is great because I just put it in like, I put it in eggs, I put it in, you know, sauces. It's like a cheat code. Yeah, yeah, but they, they were sort of like going, I didn't know nearly enough about katsuobushi then until like, I, they started telling me that there's like, there's the smoked one, there's the smoked and fermented, you know, the arabushi they're very different and so then I, of course, I bought like all these different kinds of katsuobushi to make dashi and I'm like, holy shit.
[00:20:57]
Yeah, they're, they're completely different, like the flavor profiles. are like totally different and like the one that you would use to make like a chawanmushi is totally different from the one you'd use to make like a miso soup. And I had, yeah, I had no idea. It's something I love about Japanese cuisine is there's not a lot of products, but the products that they have They go really, really deep into. Yeah, they go,
[00:21:21] Jesse Ito:
Yeah, there's a lot of options.
[00:21:22] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, well I had some questions for you about that. So like, I always remember my first great sushi meal ever, which was, this was in like 2005, like after we were working at Cafe Grey, and once in a while we'd go to this place called Sushi Seki in New York. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I never went there.
[00:21:37]
They were open late night, right? Yeah, yeah, well, they ended up opening another one on 23rd Street, but Seki, the first one was uptown, and Seki would be there. I just remember the first time he handed me this spicy scallop roll, and, uh, the hand roll, you know, and it was the best, probably one of the best I've ever eaten, and I never had somebody do that.
[00:21:54]
I didn't know anything about omakase, this was like, you know, I was like 21. And the other thing that I always remember is like every, every course, It would tell us, soy sauce or no soy sauce, like don't use soy sauce or use soy sauce. Yeah. And then sometimes they would swap the soy sauce. I was curious, like, do you have a particular soy sauce that you like or that you use, that you give your guests for what they're dipping their sushi in?
Yeah.
[00:22:15] Jesse Ito:
I mean, most sushi chefs, we use something called like Nikiri Shoyu, it's the, it means like sweeter soy sauce, but we, it's, it's augmented, so I get like a base. I use, Yamasa for everything like that's the brand I like and you can get different kinds of soy sauce from them. So I use one that's not as it's not necessarily less sodium, but it's not as like salty.
[00:22:37]
And then I add, I add like mirin other things.
[00:22:41] Josh Sharkey:
Oh, interesting.
[00:22:41] Jesse Ito:
So the thing that they're dipping in. Gotcha. Yeah. That's why when. You kind of look at sushi, at my sushi, you can always tell if like it's, it's just like straight soy sauce because it gets really dark. Yeah, yeah. Where it's like kind of like a, it's like, it looks a little glazed, like a glistening.
That's, that's Nikiri Shoyu.
[00:22:59] Josh Sharkey:
Ah, okay. That's the secret sauce. Alright, so you just make, you make like a, mirin.
[00:23:06] Jesse Ito:
I mean, you can add other things, but usually it's like a, a mixture of other things mixed in, yeah.
[00:23:10] Josh Sharkey:
And then how about for the, for the marinated rice, Shari is what it's called, right? Shari , yeah. Like what kind of vinegar do you use for that?
[00:23:19] Jesse Ito:
I use Akazu, so it's red rice vinegar. It's like made with sake leaves, so it just takes a lot longer, it's more expensive, but it has this like umami rich flavor to it. That's why you see some sushi rice that's a little brown. Yeah. Yeah. That's the difference.
[00:23:33]
And then I also use for the Izakaya, we use just
regular rice vinegar. We use Miskan. Yeah. Yeah. But that's also mixed with like salt, sugar, and some other things. Sometimes it depends on the recipe. I have different recipes for different seasons or different, if it's for the Izakaya, it's for the Omakase.
[00:23:52] Josh Sharkey:
Oh, interesting. Yeah. So, so for the Omakase, when you're making the, uh, the marinade, the chorizo, like, do you heat the vinegar with the salt and sugar? Yeah.
[00:24:01] Jesse Ito:
I used to do that, and my dad used to do that, but these days, I don't, I don't heat it up anymore. Yeah. I actually just, I actually just mix it all together.
[00:24:09]
You just let it dissolve. I let it dissolve. The mixing kinda, I felt like, it sometimes takes away some of the pungency of the vinegar.
[00:24:14] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, yeah, you lose some of the acid. Do you have any combo in there when you're, when you're letting it, like, sit? I do add a little kombu for like a day and then you take if you let it sit too long,
[00:24:26] Jesse Ito:
It’s sticky.
[00:24:27] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Any preference on sesame oils, toasted, non toasted or the types that you like?
[00:24:33] Jesse Ito:
Yeah. I, I used, um, the, what's the brand? You know, I've used this for so long. I don't even look at it. It's in the metal tin. Kadoya? Yeah. You've probably seen it. It's always in that metal tin. Like that is, that is the sesame oil.
[00:24:51]
Every, I think sushi restaurant uses or every Japanese restaurant uses. It's like my whole life. I grew up with that.
[00:24:58] Josh Sharkey:
I think I have one in my apartment too. Yeah, that's like, that's the one I always have in my house as well. I tried this golden sesame oil. Comes from Osaka. I forget the producer's name.
[00:25:08]
Comes from that, that same company, uh, Japanese Pantry. Now I feel like I'm just shouting out this company all the time. I also
[00:25:13] Jesse Ito:
look them up. I don't, I don't. Oh, you should definitely check out.
[00:25:15] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, uh, Wattamon is the uh, is the company, it's amazing man, it's the best, I mean they have a golden sesame oil, they have a toasted sesame oil, and they have a, a white sesame oil, and they also have the sesame paste, which is kind of like tahini, but like way better, and they have a black sesame paste, yeah this company Wattamon is really cool, they're out of, they're out of Osaka, I'll shoot you a, a note with a, a link to the, the website, and if you ever want to chat with them Are they like a distributor,
[00:25:38] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, they're out of San Francisco.Francisco, this guy's Chris and Greg.
Yeah. Greg actually had a restaurant, Japanese restaurant in San Francisco. They spend a lot of time going back and forth to Japan and they just have like amazing products.
[00:25:48] Jesse Ito:
I'll have to check it out, definitely.
[00:25:49] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, not cheap. I mean, actually, some of it actually is pretty affordable, but really, really good.
[00:25:53]
Yeah. So I read something when you were talking about uni, like you're like tasting the uni. I love uni. It's one of my favorite things, but like, I was curious if you had a preference.
[00:26:00] Jesse Ito:
I get all the unis.
[00:26:02] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. Do you have a preference of like Maine or Santa Barbara or Japanese? And, and also like, I saw something where like you tasted every day.
[00:26:08] Jesse Ito:
Oh yeah. So when I worked at my dad's restaurant, I, we used to do live uni Thursdays. Cause that's when they would come in. Came in live? Yeah. From Santa Barbara. I had to open them all and I had to taste them all. Cause, At that time, about like a quarter or third were throwaway. They were just like either really bitter or floral or the texture was just really broken.
[00:26:29]
You don't know until you open it. So I, once you taste it every day, you start to, you start to build patterns. I mean, uni that's going to taste good is usually like really vibrant yellow or orange, preferably like golden orange. That probably means it's going to be sweet. And then the texture shouldn't look, it should look like, um, Yeah.
[00:26:47]
Puffed up bouncy, almost if it looks a little like loose, it's probably not going to be a great texture in your mouth, but if it's like pale, that generally indicates it's going to be. Bitter. It's not all the time. Yeah, so I had to taste it every day for a long time, the live uni. But that was, that was from California.
[00:27:07]
Uh, my favorite uni that I like to use is Aka uni. It's a red uni from Kyushu, from southern Japan. To me, it just has like a more layered flavor. It's not, it's not quite as sweet as like Hokkaido. Or Murasaki. Murasaki uni is the purple uni, and Hokkaido uni is usually Bafun uni, which is like black. It's a black sea urchin, and Aka is red.
[00:27:31]
So there's like three main Japanese uni. We, for the most part, use the Bafun Hokkaido uni. The most, the most consistent, sweetest, you can always get it in terms of Maine or California. I've had really good product from both parts, more so California, but I don't use either because it's just inconsistent to get and I need it for my menu.
[00:27:56]
So if I get a batch, it's like really bitter, really broken or really, really like wet, I just can't use it. And then my menu is like screwed up that whole week. So. I always get the Japanese uni. I'll just pay more for consistency, quality. 100%, yeah.
[00:28:10] Josh Sharkey:
When you were getting the live uni back in the day, like, would you then cure it?
[00:28:13] Jesse Ito:
No, we would serve it that night. That's what I was live. Uni Thursdays. You can, there is, they sell something. I, I forget. Cause I haven't used this since my dad's restaurant. I think it's an agar. It's like these little agar gel things that you put in water. And if you put the Ooni in it, it puffs it up and it like holds it.
[00:28:29]
So it doesn't melt. And I think most Ooni you get has actually been treated that way.
[00:28:32] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's why I have terrible memories of like, this was like 20 something years ago I worked at Oceana and we would have those, like, you know, the things that you use to cut open the Uni. Or use it. It's like it was a No, it had this thing, it was like a It looked like a pair of scissors, but it was like a You use it with two hands, and you just like, cut it open like that.
[00:28:55]
Yeah. And now I have to Google because I distinctly remember this thing, and I and I hated opening the uni, but I also like I remember so, like, vividly, like liking the trays of uni way better than this live uni, because the live uni would go on the, uh, on the, you know, the seafood platters. Nice. It just didn't taste the same.
[00:29:12]
I was like, why is it like, it felt like almost like, you know, when you get cod and you have to kind of salt it a little bit or some fish, we had to like salt a little bit to take out some of the moisture. It just felt like it wasn't as, as tight. I hate it open and stuff.
[00:29:23] Jesse Ito:
Yeah. It's like melting. It's like melting in room temp.
[00:29:25] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. Now I have to look up these uni, Uni opener, so I'm like Googling it right now.
[00:29:31] Jesse Ito:
But, you know, these days it's really hard to do live uni because it's more than half end up being throwaway. So I haven't done it for years because the yield is just bad and so terrible.
[00:29:41] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. Speaking of that, I am also like super curious about crazy, because I'm not Googling this and I can't find, I can't find it anywhere.
[00:29:49]
I'm going to have to look this up again, but anyways, how do you manage all this, like the waste in a sushi restaurant? You're getting fish in, flown in, you in particular, obviously, like, like many restaurants, you're getting stuff flown in from Japan, I assume. And so you're getting fish in whatever, if it's every day, every couple of days, you're making a bunch of rice.
[00:30:08]
I think you make like 60 pounds of rice a day. Like, how do you. How do you manage the waste? I mean, I know you know how many people are coming in every day. So is that how you do that? Is your very particular about like the weight of every single fish that comes in and you know that's exactly how much we'll need?
[00:30:23] Jesse Ito:
Yeah. I mean, for the ordering, if you look at my order list, I do try to specify weight. They can't always, you know, Give me the weight I want for a fish, but I know relatively like, you know, this fish is, uh, this Nodoguro is like a pound, a pound and a quarter or, you know, so I, you can specify weight. That's one thing and quantity.
[00:30:42]
I know how many fish I need for the omakase every night, but there is going to be waste. And that's why having the izakaya is like paramount for this, like this duality. We, we use all the, any, any fish I don't use, I use in the Izakaya. And any fish we have leftover at the end of the night from the Izakaya.
[00:31:00]
We use in the industry, Chirashi bowl that's available for takeout, which is like scraps of fish put into a pine container with rice, like pickled jalapenos, soy sauce, sesame oil, scallion, yeah, and like spicy cod roe, and that's like served for $20. That's so cool. And there's like. If you actually count what's in it, it should be worth like $35, $40. Yeah.
[00:31:26] Josh Sharkey:
So that's like the next day, like lunch, people can get like, come in and get lunch. It's not lunch,
[00:31:29] Jesse Ito:
It's just takeout. But it's all, like, yeah, it's available as long as we have the, the product to use it. But it's, it's any, yeah, fish leftover from the day before or just scrap pieces, like end pieces, imperfect pieces.
[00:31:43]
Because for the Chirashi Sashimi, Nomakase were using all prime cuts.
[00:31:48] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah.
[00:31:49]
So, sushi is a pretty precious craft. You know, I think that from an outsider looking in, it seems like it's one of those things that, you know, the technique and the time spent is, Really important to assessing like a sushi joint and a lot of these especially once you get like the upper echelon of Of omakase, you know, like one there's almost like this just like this similarity of all of them, right?
[00:32:16]
They're all it's it's a it's somewhat of a similar experience But they also like have a very particular perception of what good sushi is supposed to be like I'm curious you like You know, American born obviously spent a lot of time in a sushi joint and are doing your own omakase now. Like, I'm just curious if like, you feel like this tension between like classical techniques and a modern approach to omakase and like, do you deal with this ever?
[00:32:43]
Does this ever like, Become part of your world where you have to sort of deal with this, this tension?
[00:32:48] Jesse Ito:
Yeah, definitely. No, I, uh, that is, that is my world. I mean, I'm always dealing with this. What is traditional? What is like contemporary? What is untraditional? Like, I'm glad we don't really throw around the word fusion anymore.
[00:33:00]
I feel like we've kind of, the food world has kind of grown out of that. It's worldly. We're using techniques in food from all over the world. As long as it's not done in a tacky way. So, yeah, I'm American born, my mom is Korean, I grew up eating Japanese and Korean food, my parents owned a Japanese restaurant, and my dad was a celebrated Japanese sushi chef.
[00:33:23]
So I have all these parts that make me and my food what it is. And for a long time, I, I try to stick to pretty traditional sushi and the experience of what you would kind of get at most places. But I would say in the last couple of years, especially in the last year, I have kind of diverged and there's definitely some more integration from just my experience growing up and just from like world travels.
[00:33:48]
I can't necessarily call it traditional omakase anymore because it's not, but it's, I still retain the elements that like, Make it a good omakase the the rice has to be really good and the fish has to be really good I mean, obviously it's it's mostly about the rice. Yeah, I mean that is what sushi is about So that as long as I got that I feel like I can you know The smaller plates are composed dishes I can kind of have some more fun with as long as it's seemingly Japanese or it like retains a Japanese feeling and the ingredients or the approach to it
[00:34:22] Josh Sharkey:
What changed? You said all of a sudden, you, not all of a sudden, it probably was gradual, but like something changed, you're like, okay, now I want to diverge and I'm going to start doing more of what I think. Was there some impetus or the catalyst that was like, helped you make that move?
[00:34:37] Jesse Ito:
Yeah, I mean, it was, it was a big thing because before like last year, at most there was like one, maybe one composed plate at most on the menu and then all nigiri and like a temaki, a hand roll.
[00:34:49]
I have so many regulars and people looking to come in, they're so used to that formula and that is a safe formula, right? And once you start doing composed plates, people expect those to change more rapidly than nigiri. Nigiri, like, I could honestly serve the same nigiri. If you go to a sushi restaurant or a sushi nigiri, like you can get the same pieces forever and you'll be happy because nigiri is a perfect, it's perfect food.
[00:35:09]
It's a perfect bite of food. If, if done, as long as you eat it on time, yeah, you got to eat it quickly. One bite. Yeah. I would say like last fall, I mean, I started getting some of the best rice I've worked with my rice technique. I'm like, yeah. I'm happier than ever. You know, it's, you're never, you never stopped trying to tweak it, but I feel like I'm very confident in making really good rice and I'm using really great vinegars and like, I'm super confident with all the fish I get and how I source it and how I now I'm dry aging tuna and things like that.
[00:35:42]
So the nigiri like. In terms of creativity, you can only do so much. You can, when you layer things too far, like too many things on top of too many things underneath it, it just diverges from what nigiri is. Right. I mean, at the end of the day, it's fish, rice, soy sauce, and maybe one or two toppings if at most.
[00:36:03]
But once you do too many, like that's not, that's, it's just so far out what sushi is and it's a rate, like we said, it's a perfect bite. So. That kind of pushed me to start putting out some more composed plates just to have more fun and to also change the experience for my diners. And yeah, to like integrate some of my other experiences, like I had this bibimbap dish on the menu last, like last season.
[00:36:28]
I mean, it was very Japanese, but it also felt kind of Korean. But I grew up eating that, like, and you can't do that with a piece of nigiri. You need, you need to do a dish like that.
[00:36:38] Josh Sharkey:
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[00:36:50]
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[00:37:24] Josh Sharkey:
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[00:37:45]
It sounds like confidence was a big piece of what changed it, which makes a ton of sense, right? You have to, you have to master something before you can. You know, think about changing it, you know, you have to understand how to make the perfect mother sauce before you decide to, you know, make your own version of it.
[00:38:00]
And so it seems like maybe you just, you hit a, an arc, you know, in your career where you felt confident enough, like, okay, I feel good enough about all this that I can start to, you know, iterate a bit.
[00:38:11] Jesse Ito:
I think that's a good way of putting it. And also that I I'm three and a half years sober now. I know we might talk about that a bit today and like, I feel like that arc of sobriety and how much I've changed since.
[00:38:24]
That point has also contributed to just me just being more comfortable with who I am and who I can put myself, what I put on a plate is me, right? Yeah, because pre COVID, I gotta be honest with you. I was very, I was much more obsessed about just being very Japanese, like just my appearance and the way I marketed myself.
[00:38:45]
Like I am half Korean and I am, I am American born and, and yeah, my dad is very Japanese and he taught me everything I know, but that's not exactly who I am. So, you know, since that point, three and a half years ago, there's been a whole kind of regrowth, I feel like, of just like, understanding who I am, and that comes out in my food, obviously.
[00:39:06] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, and it's also probably, not probably, I'm sure, a huge part of why your food continues to get more compelling and better because you have your perspective on it. Sushi is one of those things, like there, and there are other parts of cuisine that are similar to this, where once you get to the best of the best of a nigiri, a perfect bite of nigiri, of the yellowtail, you know, that's that.
[00:39:32]
And then what? Like, what's the difference between, you know, and I'm, by the way, this might be a terrible thing to say, but like, what's the difference between Masa's and Narisawa's? I don't, are they the same nigiri, piece of nigiri? And is there some tiny little divergence that most people might not pick up?
[00:39:48]
You know? So with things like this, I feel like it's such a huge advantage as well to just have some other completely different, you know, perspective that you can bring to this because otherwise it's just the same thing for generations.
[00:40:00] Jesse Ito:
Thanks. Yeah. I mean, that is what made Nobu who he is. I mean, I'm not trying to be Nobu and own hotels and like, I don't know, over 25 restaurants across the world.
[00:40:09]
I'm not, that's not, no, yeah
[00:40:10] Josh Sharkey:
You know, you know, you're still young, man,
[00:40:11] Jesse Ito:
But he has so much Peruvian South American influence in his food and, you know, Like Japanese food traditionally has no heat. There's no like jalapeno or serrano pepper or aji amarillo. There's no spices. It's just wasabi and maybe like spicy mustard.
[00:40:31]
Right. There's no yuzu kosho. That that's like the spiciest thing you're going to get. Right. But I love yuzu kosho. It's also another cheat code, but. Nobu san, like, he completely changed it and they go so well together, those flavors. Now everyone uses Japanese flavors, right? I mean, dashi is in everything.
[00:40:50] Josh Sharkey:
Mm hmm.
[00:40:51] Jesse Ito:
Shokuji is in everything, right? So it's exciting. It's exciting to kind of diverge. But I do, you have to pay respect to the chefs who have, the traditionalists who have just like, Nonstop trying to obtain perfection, perfection is not a real thing. I don't think it's an actual real thing. It's something that you always aspire to.
[00:41:11] Josh Sharkey:
And that's the pursuit. Look, that is a beautiful thing too. You know, someone who just like, he's just maniacally focused on continually making that thing better. And this, the tiniest nuances and they compound over time over the course of 30, 40 years. If you make, you know, a 0.1 percent improvement in the rice.
[00:41:32]
Over the course of 40 years, that's a, you know, you can have some pretty incredible rice, and I think that's a beautiful thing too. But it's also just necessary to have other approaches, right, that you have other diverging ways of eating this food. Otherwise it, to be honest, it gets a little boring, right, and you can only have so many places that are, that are that, you know.
[00:41:50] Jesse Ito:
Yeah, for me it gets boring, but, you know, obviously that works. Those sushi restaurants are still really busy, still really hard to get into, and still really expensive, and If I stayed on that path, I could have been the same, but It's just, this is my journey, and this is where it's going, and I just find it a little more exciting for myself.
[00:42:12] Josh Sharkey:
What do you think are some of the biggest misconceptions about sushi in America?
[00:42:16] Jesse Ito:
The biggest one is fresh is best. That is, that's still the biggest one.
[00:42:22] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. Just not understanding that. Like when you freeze a piece of fish on the boat, it's going to be far better than if you catch it and then wait. No,
[00:42:30] Jesse Ito:
No, not necessarily that. It's more about the aging process. Like you can, you can age a fish.
[00:42:38]
I dry aged my fish, my tuna up to five weeks and it only makes it better. And yeah, as a chef, it's so interesting. And then, and even in Japan at the high, at the like. The peak of omakase chefs, they, they tend to age their fish a bit.
[00:42:55]
It's not just like picked up and cut and served that day. The top ones age a little. And those top chefs, if you read their like, like Jiro, he'll say like on day five, this is when I serve my shimaji or something like that. Those nuances. So it's interesting. And, and in here in America, it's, it's most people just think like, and most of the world, they think it's like, Oh yeah, it's caught, flown over, cut up, served, but that's not necessarily the best.
[00:43:19]
It is very good. I mean, and it's definitely, it leaves a lot less room for error. Right. Yeah. It's not the best.
[00:43:25] Josh Sharkey:
What's the guy's name? I saw this guy do a demo at the Chef'sRoll Conference, uh, at the AntiCon, and he did this demo on dried fish. I think he's based in L.A. or maybe he's based in Seattle. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah, yeah. He's joined Seafood. Yeah, what's, what's his name? I don't, I have to look it up. I think it's
[00:43:41] Jesse Ito:
Liwei. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I met him. I hung out with him. It was awesome. I went to LA and he cut me up a bunch of tuna and salmon and like sea bream. It was so good. It was delicious. He's like, yeah, this is three weeks, this is four weeks.
[00:43:55] Josh Sharkey:
That's a hard operation, by the way, like dry aging to then sell to the restaurants because the timing of all that, you know, that was what I, to be honest with you, that's what I found most fascinating. I mean, the fish was Insanely delicious, but like his process of how he times everything that comes in of when it's going to get to a customer and like the levers he has to pull over, like which things age at which point, you know, cause he, he ages everything.
[00:44:16]
So it can't just come in and sell it. He's got a, you know, time that really well. That's a, that's a hard business.
[00:44:21] Jesse Ito:
You should have him on the show. He, I mean, he's so knowledgeable about that and his, his business is, I wonder, I mean, it's, it's pretty impressive.
[00:44:28] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. Yeah. You know, if you don't mind, I do want to talk a little bit about the sobriety, because I know it started to sort of hit a peak, you know, a few years ago, and I mean, either that has been super tough.
[00:44:42]
I mean, COVID, I have to imagine, had a big impact on that. Yeah, that was definitely a catalyst. Yeah. Or the effects of COVID. Before we get into that, I'm just curious now, because clearly, like, drinking helps, like, to manage stress, and all the stress of the restaurant, and COVID, or not having a restaurant, or whatever those things are, a big part of, and I'm speculating here, but like, of getting sober, is you have to find some other way to manage that stress. Is there something that you do today that's sort of replaced? The drinking?
[00:45:15] Jesse Ito:
I would say therapy is huge just for a foundation. You need therapy. I think everyone could use it. Yeah. Just makes life better. But after, after doing a lot of therapy, after finding sobriety, honestly, I work out like that's my hobby when I'm not working like in the morning or I hang out with my girlfriend and we go eat or do something.
[00:45:35]
But the best way I've found to manage and deal with stress is just It's managing it. It's like actually managing it and being on top of it. Like the thing, the stresses in your life that you're anxious about. I don't want to be anxious about it. I need to address it. And that's really hard sometimes. And you know, most people want to numb that and they just want to drink or get high or something to just like, kind of alleviate that, right?
[00:46:03]
You don't want to face the thing that's causing the stress that is causing you to drink more or like want to go party. When that was removed from me, I had to start addressing things. Yeah. And that is how I manage it. You know, I, I have more sit downs with people if I need to, or, you know, I just try to keep communication open much better.
[00:46:25]
And I like, yeah, I just, I just try to also personally. Live my life better. So I don't think I'll say problems. I don't have to apologize for anything or,
[00:46:36] Josh Sharkey:
It's a big part of why I asked that because I've seen people that you know, they stopped doing drugs or drinking and then they're just like Maniacally into exercise and they exercise like, you know, three hours a day every day or into some other thing and yeah It's better in that, yeah, you're doing something that's healthier than drinking, but it's such a great point that you make that, yeah, the only way to really, to have a healthy way to manage the stress is to actually make space for it and talk about it and be in it, which I'm terrible at, by the way, that's why I, you know, Like trying to, you know, work with therapists on them because they're like, yeah, like it's probably why you work all the time and then exercise because all those things mean you don't have to deal with what you're thinking and I think that's probably why you, it's so sustainable the way you're approaching sobriety because you're, you have a therapist and you are like, you know, you didn't find some other, like, Another ism.
[00:47:30] Josh Sharkey:
Replacement.
[00:47:31] Jesse Ito:
Yeah.
[00:47:32] Josh Sharkey:
The isms.
[00:47:33] Jesse Ito:
I mean, I'm public about this, so I don't mind saying it. I go to AA. I mean, AA's been a huge part, and I never thought I'd go to something like that. Right? Because they're usually in churches and I'm not a religious person, but I have to admit, like, it just teaches you how to, live life better, like just how to deal with resentments, how to deal with, it's mainly dealing with resentment.
[00:47:56]
A lot of it, a ton of it, or just being upset at someone or yourself and how do you deal with that? And the best way to deal with it actually is to like, You address it. Yeah. It's so true, man. It's the only way. Right? And it's the hardest way. You should talk about it. Yeah. And what I found in the past three years is the situations that I thought were going to be so explosive, like, just like, Oh my God, the world's going to end if I have this conversation with X person or Y person, 99 percent of the time that doesn't happen.
[00:48:28]
That's it. Everything's fine. If anything gets better or you decided like part ways, whatever. But. That's it. It never like explodes. It's not like you're arguing and yelling at each other. No, it's like you just have them in conversation. I mean, that's also on you. Like you have to also, you know, know how to tame yourself and your temper.
[00:48:49]
But the best way to do it is just, just if you got a problem or you're feeling something, you should communicate that.
[00:48:55] Josh Sharkey:
That's it. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. I mentioned this too often now, but I have this. Picture frame back there. Oh, what's in it? What does it say? Seneca's like a stoic philosopher. And I love this quote.
[00:49:06]
I have it in as many places as possible. And it basically just says we suffer more in imagination than reality. Yeah. And it's exactly what you just said, right? There's we create so much of this stress and anxiety in our heads. And then that creates more stress. And then that creates more. Yeah. When you think about it, when you like play the thing out, you're like, It's not that, this isn't that big of a thing, you know, we just need to talk about it.
[00:49:29]
I do think it's awesome that you, you see a therapist, and I totally agree, like everybody should, because it's just, to address these problems, you know, you just need to make space for them, and a therapist is just someone you pay to make space for talking about your problems. You have your friends for that too, you kind of don't want to do it with your wife or your girlfriend because, There's a bias there and you can, but there's, you know, anytime there's like some real bias because of the relationship, it's tough.
[00:49:53]
So like, you're just basically paying somebody to make space for the shit that you want to deal with. I agree, everybody should.
[00:49:59] Jesse Ito:
Definitely, but also what you're doing is, I mean, I, Like, I, I'll complain to my friend sometime if I need to or my girlfriend, but there's some things that aren't for them. Right.
[00:50:10]
And you went by, you should tell them what's bothering you, but you can't expect them to find you a solution. And that puts it on them. And someone who is professionally trained and has the experience of dealing with so many situations from other people and seeing how it plays out, just like you and I have worked in kitchens and we know the situations and how it plays out.
[00:50:28]
Like they know it well on just. How someone having a mental breakdown like this, the stress in life, how it may play out. So that's what I think is critical is like having that professional who you can tell anyone and they can't tell anybody, right? They're not allowed to tell anybody. You can tell them anything.
[00:50:49]
And they can help you, or at least they can listen to you and not be annoyed that they have to listen to you.
[00:50:55] Josh Sharkey: Yeah, exactly. Sometimes it can be annoying if,
If you have Sure, they're annoyed sometimes, but that's what they're paid for.
[00:51:00] Jesse Ito:
No, no, I mean like if, if you're like girlfriend or your wife or you're like Oh, yeah. Like if you complain all the time, that gets annoying.
[00:51:07] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, yeah, of course. And it's a burden on, it's, it's a burden that isn't necessarily fair anyways to put on, on them all the time. And I, that's why I, I definitely think a therapist is just a great, a great thing for anybody to have for that same reason and sometimes honestly Just saying the thing gives you like 50 percent of the relief, you know, having a place for you could just like say the thing I had a therapist like a long time ago that I was annoyed about because like, I would tell her this problem and like, okay, let's figure out how to solve it.
[00:51:35]
She's like, nah, just talk about it. I'm like, no, what do you mean? Let's, let's figure out. And she said, no, that's what you just wanted to say him today. I'm like, that's, that's dumb, but actually did help a bunch.
[00:51:47] Jesse Ito:
You got to find the right therapist for you.
[00:51:50] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, yeah,
[00:51:51] Jesse Ito:
We want to solve things, right?
[00:51:53] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, exactly. So I was going to ask you, like, what's next for you? It sounds like this restaurant, this new Izakaya is next for you. Is that like already in the works? Do you already have the lease signed? Yeah, lease is signed.
[00:52:05] Jesse Ito:
We announced it publicly, I think three weeks ago, just because the liquor license placard went up for transfer. Which shows our LLC, which is, you know, you can see my name on it. We're like a year out. It's probably next spring or next summer. How are you feeling about it? I mean, so far out where it's almost like not real yet, but it's also, you know, we meet every week or more than once a week about it and we're conceptualizing and designing it.
[00:52:33]
It's, it's very exciting. I am really excited. I feel like this is the. The right move it, you know, I, I have had offers for so long, all these years to open more and you usually see people just keep opening, right? Yeah. Open one, the next year they open two or something. I waited seven or eight years to do, to do this.
[00:52:52]
It just had to be the right move. And Royal's at the, at a good place right now in terms of culture and staffing and like experience and system systems are huge. So, you know, we can also transfer those systems to a new place. That's a big part of it. So I feel really excited about this. I can't wait. It's also in Rittenhouse, which I live in.
[00:53:13]
I live in Center City. Like, I don't know how familiar you are with Philadelphia, but I live like a block and a half from this, where this restaurant is.
[00:53:19] Josh Sharkey:
Oh, that's awesome.
[00:53:20] Jesse Ito:
Yeah. And it's in the hub of the city, whereas Royal's kind of. It's on front street, which is first street next to Jersey, right? So it's a destination still almost where this is right in the middle.
[00:53:33] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. How far apart are they from each
If you drove? It's like 15 minute drive, 10 minute drive. Yeah. That's not bad at all. Yeah. Yeah. It's always tough when the second restaurant's really far away.
[00:53:43] Jesse Ito:
Yeah. Like I, I got offers though, but like in New York, Boston, DC, I'm like, nah, I don't, I don't want to jump on a train or a plane to get to my other restaurant. You have to be mobile, be able to be there all the time.
[00:53:54] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. Yeah. Awesome, man. Well, I'm excited for the second opening, though. I'm going to come to Royals for the first time soon. It's pretty quick to get Philly from New York.
[00:54:06] Jesse Ito:
I have a lot of regulars who just take the train in.
[00:54:08] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. For their reservation.
[00:54:11] Jesse Ito:
You got to come in. Let me know.
[00:54:12] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah, well, this was, um, this was great, man. I appreciate the time. I know you got to get back to doing the thing. I'm glad we finally found some time for this.
[00:54:18] Jesse Ito:
Yeah. Thanks for having me on.
[00:54:19] Josh Sharkey:
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for tuning into The meez Podcast. The music from the show is a remix of the song Art Mirror by an old friend, hip hop artist Fresh Daily.
[00:54:29]
For show notes and more, visit getmeez.com/podcast. That's G E T M E Z dot com forward slash podcast. If you enjoyed the show, I'd love it if you could share it with fellow entrepreneurs and culinary pros, and give us a 5 star rating wherever you listen to your podcasts. Keep innovating, don't settle, make today a little bit better than yesterday, and remember, it's impossible for us to learn what we think we already know.
See you next time.
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